to think faith schools should be banned?

[fluffymouse]

Not just because they aren't inclusive or diverse, but also because of the local impact.

My nearest school is a faith school. Every day when I drive to work, I see dozens of cars parked along the street of the school with parents dropping off children. They park everywhere on a very narrow street including double yellow lines and the zig zag lines outside the school. It seems like nobody walks to this school, as it quite simply does not serve the local community.

Local people have no chance of sending their children to this school unless they are off the faith, and they have very strict criteria for this. Meanwhile locals also have a lot of congestion to put up with. There is obviously also a big environmental impact.

Aibu to think that state schools should be inclusive, and not exclusive based on faith grounds, as all tax payers are contributing towards their running costs?

Ask yourself why so many faith schools are 'good' schools - a status they trumpet so triumphantly? Is it because children of faith are inherently brighter? Or is it because the schools are able to play the system to exclude the more challenging children and families, thus increasing the challenging intake other schools have to take rather than spreading it more evenly

Depends. My DC's school takes children from over three counties, from many different backgrounds, with parents of varying wealth & educational achievements. The only thing they stipulate is to be a baptised Catholic. There is no checking the family background beforehand, they do not exclude 'challenging families' . The children all mix together and get to know others from different backgrounds. There is probably more diversity than in some schools with a narrow catchment where most people are likely to be from the same economic/social background.

Ah... so you think that working class people cannot be practicing Christians, Jassy?

I should have said 'All that is being selected for, on the whole, is the ability and organisation to show up at THE RIGHT church.' And often, having the right baptism certificate etc.

So many assumptions are being made. Our local faith school is more ethnically diverse and takes more EAL children as a percentage than the other schools in our area. That is stated so by OFSTED.

Ah... so you think that working class people cannot be practicing Christians

Of course they can. But it is insulting to insinuate that good school performance is all down to 'religious values'.

And who has done that?

Well, you mentioned the "subset of families with a certain set of values that are then likely to have a positive impact on educational progress."

I took that to mean religious values?

Kitten so is ours.

I absolutely don't mean religious values. Which is why I didn't write religious values!

I'm confused Bonsoir. Are you saying that selection on values other than religious values is a good thing for faith schools to be able to do?

I'm not making any sort of personal value judgement. I just think that when faith school select pupils based on worshipping behavior of their parents, it gives them the opportunity to select the children of families who are disciplined enough to get the whole family to church (or whatever) once a week, to adhere to a certain degree of institutional behavior and enjoy belonging to a mutually supportive community. All those things are likely to bode well for children's achievement at school. They are not class or income based behaviors.

So religiosity as a proxy marker of decency/community/good behaviour?

Yes a proxy of a sort of self-discipline and community spirit.

Agree with all of the first part of your post Bonsoir, but can't agree with your last sentence.

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10323404/Faith-schools-selecting-wealthy-pupils-by-the-back-door.html

"Research published today shows that Anglican, Roman Catholic, Jewish and Muslim schools are fair less likely to reflect the economic status of families living in the local area than traditional community comprehensives."

"Campaigners claim that many faith schools impose overly-complicated admissions policies that favour middle-class families who can play-the-system to secure places."

You say it's not the church making the decisions on who to admit but they are the ones who have to sign forms etc stating weekly attendance, flower rota etc. so are equally to blame on my book. They could refuse on grounds that that is divisive but they don't. Also wouldn't the priest be on the governing body?

Why would anyone want their children educated by a Church that condoned the neglect and abuse of 800 children less than 50 years ago and buried them in a septic tank?

And why would anyone want their child educated by a bunch of people who think that girls should grow up to be owned by their husbands?

Or believe that evolution is a myth?

Or that being gay is wrong?

And why does the State pay them to do this?

YANBU In the area I live in (which has poor state schools in general), the faith based schools have long used restrictive admissions policies to select the best pupils, skewing the whole system. For us personally this means that our children will never be able to go to their local secondary (if you're not catholic and haven't been to the feeder primaries, none of which are local, you stand ZERO chance of getting in) and will instead have to be bused to a school 5-10 miles away. To my mind, this does not serve the local community.
I don't have a problem with schools running themselves using a faith-based ethos (I'm Christian myself), but if they're state funded they should not be able to select pupils solely on the basis of their faith.

And why does the State pay them to do this?

My guess would be to save money - which doesn't make it right.

There's no such thing as a free lunch, which is why we should be aware of the trade off in terms of discriminatory practice, influence and control where state schools cross over with other organisations.

fluffymouse, I haven't read all the thread so sorry if this has been said already. How do you know there aren't any people of faith in the local community? If there are it serves at least some of the local community. My 2 DC both went to a C of E primary where plenty of kids were local. (DC2 is just about to leave.)

It's also anything but exclusive. My kids have had friends who were Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, Jewish and from diverse ethnic groups. The school teaches respect and tolerance for people of other faiths and none. If they
brainwashed the kids into Christianity (as someone said) my Muslim and Hindu friends wouldn't send their kids there.

Get rid of faith schools and you lose some of the highest quality schools in the country, which would be a crime.

Inconsiderate parking and congestion is a separate issue. I agree with you about that. However, where I live (in a city suburb, 2-3 miles from the school), that's a bad problem for the local non-faith schools. Sometimes if people are going on to work they drive the kids even if they are local.

I park 7-8 minutes' walk away and walk!

Bonsoir, no, but it does exclude chaotic and many disadvantaged and precariat households. The huge disparity in proportions of FSM pupils is a clear marker that those who use church attendance as a means of accessing preferential education are proportionally wealthier than the broader communities in which they exist.

Have you looked at income or class profiles of church attendees? Church of England research itself shows that it's wildly skewed towards the middle class - if they admit it, why can't others?

Church attendance is far from a reliable proxy for community-mindedness; one is perhaps a minor subset of the other.

unrealhousewife, I am a Christian and know many other Christians, and none of us believe any of that.

Cheesecake, why do you think they're the best schools, out of interest?

Get rid of faith schools and you lose some of the highest quality schools in the country, which would be a crime

Why? Would those schools suddenly vanish, if they were forced to not discriminate on faith?

YANBU for the state sector
but if people want to pay to segregate their children they should be allowed to BUT there should be no tax breaks AT ALL for religions or religious schools

JassyRadlett,

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lead me to think this.