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Original poster

To not understand UK Jihadists?

128 replies

Moolin · 23/06/2014 13:16

I was going to post in the politics section but it looks completely deserted.

I am not trying to start any kind of row/bunfight/trouble.

I want to ask someone to explain a few things. There are aspects of Jihad I don't understand and nor does anyone else I've asked in RL.

How can UK born jihadists, who go to fight in Iraq (I'm thinking of Isis) or Syria, and kill civilians and Iraqi/Syrian nationals, justify what they are doing? Not that killing anyone else is any more justifiable in my eyes but I thought it was the West they deplored, not their fellow Muslims.

Also, If jihadists are killing Iraqi citizens in car bombings etc, how can they deplore the Western military for doing a similar?

OP posts:
CrotchMaven · 23/06/2014 19:55

I can't believe no-one's mentioned rubber dinghy rapids.

Original poster
Moolin · 23/06/2014 20:09

MiniTheMinx - I suppose it depends on what you mean by 'western values' - there was a big thread about this the other day.

As regards human rights, do we have a global/non-relative conception of human rights. No, we don't because peoples ideas are different in regards to what they consider important and this depends upon culture.

I'm not sure I agree with this.

OP posts:
Original poster
Moolin · 23/06/2014 20:10

MiniTheMinx - That's really interesting about Saddam and the CIA.

OP posts:
Softlysoftlycatchymonkey · 23/06/2014 20:16

Do we have a right to impose western cultural values on other people? I don't think we do

Ok so why are extremist preachers coming here to tell us how awful we are and we are all going to hell. The ME culture is archaic and oppressive. People women should not have to live like that any more.

Softlysoftlycatchymonkey · 23/06/2014 20:16

mini where did you get all the information from?

Softlysoftlycatchymonkey · 23/06/2014 20:18

It saddens me that people still think that in this day and age it's ok to live under that rule and it's bloody well not.

MiniTheMinx · 23/06/2014 20:24

www.michaelparenti.org/ you should find some stuff here but I have read Parenti Against Empire which is brilliant.

I think human rights is a bit like moral in general, is it possible to have universally accepted moral or is morality relative. I actually think it is possible to establish universal moral codes but this is the work of philosophy, not of Western states acting on behalf of Wall street finance capital! and I agree as regards women's rights, but plenty of muslim feminists claim that western feminism is another kind of liberal cultural imperialism, I agree with this. We do not a have a right to assume our culture is better and others primitive.

MiniTheMinx · 23/06/2014 20:32

Softlysoftlycatchymonkey, we have a problem with immigration, this is caused mainly by imperialism and capitalism, look up what is happening in India where farmers are being thrown off their land. Uneven global development of capitalism, property rights and intellectual property rights over things like seeds/chemicals punish the poor and poorer nations. Even when the west makes loans to poorer countries either to rebuild or develop, this comes with strict rules, high interest and IMF interference. Where the US gives aid, they insist that the money is used to buy american imports. The whole global system is weighted in favour of the west, that is why people seek refuge and work here and also why these so called "hate preachers" preach against western culture/imperialism. Its not just about religion.

Original poster
Moolin · 23/06/2014 20:34

We do not a have a right to assume our culture is better and others primitive.

Taking this comment in a feminist context, I think we do have the right to assume some cultures are more primitive in their treatment of women. That said I don't think British culture is perfect in respect of women's issues.

OP posts:
MiniTheMinx · 23/06/2014 20:40

The culture may be primitive from the point of view that the superstructural stuff as religion tends to accord with what the economic base structure is, so religion is the driving ideology and this exists with pre-capitalist/pre-industrial economic base. So in a sense the culture is primitive compared to ours. But I think all we can do is support Muslim feminist in the way in which they want support. What astounds me is we have Muslim preachers preaching about covering up, and white male privileged politicians preaching about not covering up...the irony is, that either way you have the privileged class telling women what to wear.

Original poster
Moolin · 23/06/2014 20:46

What astounds me is we have Muslim preachers preaching about covering up, and white male privileged politicians preaching about not covering up...the irony is, that either way you have the privileged class telling women what to wear.

Absolutely, this is what I mean by our society being far from perfect when it comes to women's issues. DD is soon to be a teenager as I worry about the pressure she will feel to look and dress a certain way.

OP posts:
Softlysoftlycatchymonkey · 23/06/2014 20:55

Can you not see the hypocrisy in what you have posted?

You feel we don't have a right to impose our western culture on ME, yet you defend the preachers who spout hate here, who by the way use the state which they thougherly hate!

Stacy Dooley documentary on the marches in Luton brought it home how very dangerous some if these extremists are.

Thankfully the majority of Muslims in England are not like this - because we would be fucked if we were !

Softlysoftlycatchymonkey · 23/06/2014 20:56

*thoroughly

cheekygeeky · 23/06/2014 21:11

Ffs some posters on here need to educate themselves. These so called jihadists are not going there to fight the west. On the contrary, they are involving themselves in civil war style battles. Almost like a foreign legion. George Orwell did this in the 30s and returned to a hero's welcome.

We are partly to blame, alongside other western powers, for the state of the middle east today. It's too simplistic and naive to simply brush this aside as Muslim extremism. Then we wonder why these stupid boys feel so disconnected and alienated from society that they go fight abroad. I'm Not defending them btw but simply saying that

cheekygeeky · 23/06/2014 21:13

This problem will not be eradicating by locking 'them' up. Charging them with treason etc. The us and them language is not helpful.

7Days · 23/06/2014 21:17

agreed, Muslim extremism is a reaction to something, not just loonies plucking it out of the air.

caruthers · 23/06/2014 21:59

This problem will not be eradicating by locking 'them' up. Charging them with treason etc. The us and them language is not helpful.

Referring to Muslim extremists as them is perfectly acceptable they certainly aren't us.

I'm not really interested in the reason why a few radical nutjobs
commit murder i'm more interested in how we punish them when we catch them.

CrotchMaven · 23/06/2014 22:07

Punish them for what?

caruthers · 23/06/2014 22:08

Punish them for what?

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

We are trying our best to find out who they are and they will be punished.

Maybe you want to give them a heroes welcome?

CrotchMaven · 23/06/2014 22:24

Of course not, it's not my fight. I just wondered what you wanted them to be punished for. And with what power.

CrotchMaven · 23/06/2014 22:28

Pretend I'm really thick and explain to me why those going out to the ME now are due our punishment.

saoirse31 · 23/06/2014 22:31

theyre committing murder? Which 'they' would that be? Anyone whose gone there for any reason? Anyone muslim whose gone there? Anyone whose handy when a conviction is needed?

Ah feck it just set up a new guantanamo bay and intern them there... that worked well before.

Im actually not dismissing your view or dislike for extremists... I have no time for them. But you know things are never as simple as youd want. And therefore the response cant be simplistic either. And yoy cant ignore the history and responsibilities that exist.

caruthers · 23/06/2014 22:36

Pretend I'm really thick and explain to me why those going out to the ME now are due our punishment.

I really don't have to pretend you're thick if you don't know what's wrong with British Muslims popping over to war torn countries to kill people.

The first method of punishment is deprivation of citizenship which Theresa May has already used to remove passports and citizenship from jihadists.

The second method of punishment is a very very long time in jail without parole which is what they deserve.

Do you think that these jihadists posing with rifles and preaching death have done no wrong? If you think that then you're wrong.

caruthers · 23/06/2014 22:44

theyre committing murder? Which 'they' would that be? Anyone whose gone there for any reason? Anyone muslim whose gone there? Anyone whose handy when a conviction is needed?

Who do you think has gone there on a jihad?

The local WI or the Derby And Joan club?

It's no use falling over all liberal when radicalised Muslims from this country are in another country killing for Allah is it?

mimishimmi · 24/06/2014 05:20

It's not just Muslims, even young Jewish men travel from various countries including Western ones, to serve in the Israeli army even though they are not always dual citizens. I do think young men are particularly susceptible when they are raised in a religious atmosphere which demonises others and where to be fighting those others is portrayed as a worthy and noble cause. Boys definitely have more of a predilection toward this sort of thing - I can still remember the plastic containers of napalm that my dad found behind the garden shed that one of my brothers had been concocting by mixing polystyrene with petrol. The 7/7 jihadis are a bit suspect though - I think they thought they were hired to do role-playing for military exercises and were actually groomed by intelligence.