To not understand UK Jihadists?

[Moolin]

I was going to post in the politics section but it looks completely deserted.

I am not trying to start any kind of row/bunfight/trouble.

I want to ask someone to explain a few things. There are aspects of Jihad I don't understand and nor does anyone else I've asked in RL.

How can UK born jihadists, who go to fight in Iraq (I'm thinking of Isis) or Syria, and kill civilians and Iraqi/Syrian nationals, justify what they are doing? Not that killing anyone else is any more justifiable in my eyes but I thought it was the West they deplored, not their fellow Muslims.

Also, If jihadists are killing Iraqi citizens in car bombings etc, how can they deplore the Western military for doing a similar?

ChazsBrilliantAttitude

So by that example it's acceptable to say that the ideology and comparison between Communism and Islam is similar and that expansionism is in the minds of the more extreme elements of the religion.

limitedperiodonly

Thanks for that insight.

I absolutely understand those UK Jihadists. Their loyalty is to Islam and they have absolutely no loyalty or love for this country. That's my take anyway.

Viviennemary

But they are killing other Muslims.

I can't say what is in the minds of the extreme elements of the religion other than what the press reports. What concerns me is the focus on a relatively small number of extremists and a sense that some how they are more representative of the religion than the 1.5bn+ muslims who are not engaged in extremism but just getting on with their lives.

There are over 2.5m muslims in England and Wales - what percentage have become jihadi?

They are killing other Muslims. Yes. So I have to agree with Laymedown. There is no logic in religious mania. And it's an excuse to fight for a cause.

yes some of them may well of hated their country of origin and wanted to visit violence on it

Did they? Maybe they loved their country and wanted to see a better place.

I'm not a Communist and would be extremely reluctant to advocate violence in any cause.

But I can envisage a reason why I might do that. That wouldn't mean that I hated my country. I can't imagine loving my country. It would mean that I didn't care for my country or perhaps despised the values it had come to hold.

It wouldn't mean that I would hate my fellow people, unless they were individually guilty of terrible crimes.

There are over 2.5m muslims in England and Wales - what percentage have become jihadi?

To be honest that's not really the point is it?

They identify as Muslim jihadists and that's what makes it newsworthy it has absolutely nothing to do with non radical Muslims.

limited
You could apply the same logic to some of these jihadi. They think that the UK would be a better place if it followed Sharia law. They think they have found the perfect way to live and believe they will go to heaven.

I don't agree with them but I do think they believe they are doing something worthy, otherwise why risk dying for it. I suspect that they think they have the right answer and want to share it with everyone; whether or not people want it shared with them.

It has everything to do with non radical Muslims because they get caught up in the labelling. There is a real risk that all young muslims get viewed as potential jihadi, not really British, not really loyal to this country etc. That labelling could create a sense of not really being accepted and part of society which seems to me to be exactly the sort of situation that the radical preachers would seek to exploit.

It has everything to do with non radical Muslims because they get caught up in the labelling.

Some people may label them but not reporting on the radical Muslims that are going to jihad isn't the answer.

How should we report it?

Did I say don't report on it? The key thing is how do you report on it. Dp the reports make it clear that they do not represent most muslims and that a lot of British muslims find their behaviour utterly unacceptable?

I have young muslim sons who view themselves as British, one of them wants to join the RAF, I am concerned about how muslims are portrayed in the media because it directly relates to my children.

I think the comment above about how the Irish were viewed during the IRA bombings is a fair one.

Do not Dp

ChazsBrilliantAttitude

The press are not vilifying all Muslims they are pointing out the radicals going to fight jihad.

I want to know about it as do many others.

I live in Manchester and i'm not surprised the IRA got bad press are you?

Just because Muslims think they are being vilified doesn't mean the more radical side should be ignored just in case others are offended.

I always wonder why the west has never attempted to oust the military junta in Myanmar, or the North Korean regime. Or even attempted to right the social wrongs in South America or Africa, if invading the ME is purely a humanitarian mission.

If they believed Saddam to be such a threat, (didn't they place him in power in the first place?) did they really, honestly think it would all end and we would be totally safe when he was gone, I mean really??!

Do you deliberately misunderstand people's posts?

It wasn't just the IRA that go a bad press - it was the Irish. The previous poster referred to the death of Gerry Conlon - one of the (at least) 17 people wrongly jailed in relation to terrorist attacks.

My post is to caruthers

Do you deliberately misunderstand people's posts?

No I don't but you're making little sense.

And the point you're trying to make is one that I don't agree with.

I think its beyond comprehension really there is so much relative 'craziness' in the world, it is to with individual pyschology, culture, beliefs etc. I think that unless we were them and inside their heads it is impossible to summise and understand their rational. They obviously believe in their cause, though in our eyes it is obviously barbaric. Many people have also questioned the UKs military activites through out history. Some of it seems barbaric and irrational in retrospect.

Some people are just vile and savage. Simple as that

caruthers
I am making very good sense because history showed how easily people can be labelled based on one shared characteristic e.g. being Irish. You just don't want it to be correct.

The fact you don't agree with me is a quite a relief to me.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude

Hyperbole and meaningless rhetoric doesn't make an argument.

Just because you have Muslim children it doesn't qualify you as more entitled to a view.....if you think ALL Muslims are vilified in the media I suggest you stop reading whatever media you are reading.

Those going off to fight see themselves as helping people who are being attacked and oppressed and having an adventure while they are at it. It's bringing a meaning to otherwise rather mundane lives.

They think that those who are currently ruling Iraq and Syria are bad people causing a lot of suffering to their people: Correct.

They think the solution to this is to get rid of them and put the people who bang on most about Islam in power: they are wrong, this would be a hideous mistake. IMO, it is a mistake borne of naivety and misinformation rather than malice or barbarism.

I think when you break it down like that, it becomes more understandable.

caruthers
Hyperbole and meaningless rhetoric doesn't make an argument.

Then why do you persist with it!

Moolin, Saddam got into power through a CIA sponsored coup. Within months of him nationalising the oil the americans claimed he was a dictator. They then had the CIA training Kurds, when the Kurds started up, Saddam gassed them with chemicals the americans had sold to him, used arms they had supplied him with and the US failed to live up to the promises they had made to the Kurds. The US had promised to launch an offensive against Saddam as soon as he used the chemical weapons, they left the Kurds out to dry! and imposed sanctions on Iraq that left thousands of children without medical care. Thousands died of cancer...this is believed to be because the Americans had used chemicals in attacking Iraq in the first golf war.

We have no business trying to impose western ideologies and capitalist exchange on the rest of the world. The ME is in this mess because the french and british stuck their beaks in, and now uncle sam hopes to maintain his power over the globe by sticking his mitts on the oil tap. Rumsfeld is rumoured to have said that as a last resort the US should occupy the oil producing countries by force.

As regards human rights, do we have a global/non-relative conception of human rights. No, we don't because peoples ideas are different in regards to what they consider important and this depends upon culture. Do we have a right to impose western cultural values on other people? I don't think we do.