To not understand UK Jihadists?

[Moolin]

I was going to post in the politics section but it looks completely deserted.

I am not trying to start any kind of row/bunfight/trouble.

I want to ask someone to explain a few things. There are aspects of Jihad I don't understand and nor does anyone else I've asked in RL.

How can UK born jihadists, who go to fight in Iraq (I'm thinking of Isis) or Syria, and kill civilians and Iraqi/Syrian nationals, justify what they are doing? Not that killing anyone else is any more justifiable in my eyes but I thought it was the West they deplored, not their fellow Muslims.

Also, If jihadists are killing Iraqi citizens in car bombings etc, how can they deplore the Western military for doing a similar?

It's a little simplistic to term them religious loons. It's a lot more politically economically culturally and historically complex. Maybe this is a wake up call to the west to understand that we sometimes reap what we sow, and to figure out why these boys are going out there to fight. If we can understand their motivation to go maybe we can prevent it in the future.

I believe that right wing Americans wanted a focus for revenge after 9/11 & somehow Saddam became it. A kind of "No one is going to mess with us any more" statement.

It is no different to people going off to fight in the Spanish Civil war in the 1930's.

The shared ideology and wanting to support people that you feel solidarity with are very similar.

This is not to condone such behaviour, but just to state that it is not something solely found in Muslims.

The situation in Syria and Iraq are very different. That most people seem to just think it's Moooslims fighting because of religion fills me with despair.

The uprising in Syria began mainly because increasing numbers of people were facing economic hardship because of government corruption and mismanagement. After 40 years of brutal dictatorship, they had had enough. This began in March 2011.

The protests were initially peaceful, but after being repeatedly attacked by govt forces and govt-backed militias, the protestors became armed and so the Free Syrian Army was born, with the aim of overthrowing the Assad regime and holding democratic elections.

There were also more Islamic styled groups, but they did consist of Syrians and worked with the FSA rebels, who still made up the majority of the anti-regime forces.

ISIS are from outside Syria. They spend most of their time fighting Syrian FSA and other groups. ISIS are actually helping Assad yallasouriya.wordpress.com/tag/isis-assad-links/ by fighting the rebels and dissuading Western regimes from supporting the FSA.

Now onto Iraq. One of the great calamities of the Western invasion was who they left behind to rule.

Former dictatorships with a diverse population are extremely prone to conflict and mismanagement. You need a leader who can unite society and bring a decent standard of living to all. Iraq instead got Noori Al Maliki, who has hugely favoured the Shi'a and brought in legislation to push this further.

This has lead to the Sunni population suffering from increased hardship and disenfranchisement. Therefore it is not too hard to understand why people might feel that an unjust regime forcibly imposed upon them, should not be removed by force. Enter ISIS.

I would state that it is not as simple as Sunni vs Shia. This to me, smacks of statecraft and that there are various countries trying to use events to boost their own power in the region.

This is going to sound very controversial and I'm sorry but it's my opinion and I fully understand that some are really not going to agree with it, and I'm not going to argue with anyone about my opinion. However I feel any British citizen found guilty of extremism and deemed a threat to sovereign soil, should be charged with treason, and given the "war time" punishment for it. Perhaps the threat of a firing squad would limit the amount willing to turn so easily to fight the war on the west.

Dont ask me how yoyou'd police it, I don't know but a bit of negative reinforcement might aid the situation.

I don't see a solution and there probably isn't one.

However I feel any British citizen found guilty of extremism and deemed a threat to sovereign soil, should be charged with treason, and given the "war time" punishment for it. Perhaps the threat of a firing squad would limit the amount willing to turn so easily to fight the war on the west.

Given that these people travel abroad to fight knowing full well they could be killed by enemy/Allied forces abroad, I don't see how the firing squad at home would act as a deterrent.

They see themselves as martyrs. They are perfectly willing to die for their cause. Nobody goes over to fight in Syria thinking the bullets and rocket bombs are made of exploding plasticine.

40 years in solitary on the other hand is a different kettle of fish...

T

True pumpkin throw them in the tower might be the answer also.

Why we're these arseholes allowed back into the UK, given that they're a threat and hate the West? I don't care if they don't hold another passport, send them back to Iraq if they like it there.

My solution would be to say that any British citizen who travels abroad to fight for a terrorist or insurgent group, will lose their British citizenship. If you believe sufficiently passionately about the conflict in a particular country that you are willing to kill for it, then you should have to live with the conditions you have helped create in that country.

No more terrorist-tourism.

I think not only do we need to punish those abroad by either removing their ability to return we also need to curb the "home" ones too. Shoot them, lock them up whatever it takes. But if you spout one word of extremism that spread hate to others you should be immediately arrested, held in solitary till trial and then punished if found guilty.

How you can stand on a street corner and breech hate in this day and age is beyond me. If your recorded doing it and there is proof of spreading hate or extremism then you should be dealt with accordingly.

I believe they are looking for an identity I also believe they are recruited as canon fodder, angry young men cunning recruiters is a dangerous mix,

I don't understand them, I know many young Muslim men who have traveled to Syria or other places to take food, clothing and medicine, at great personal expense and risk. They don't make it into the news though

Ironic reading some of views here shortly after gerry conlon died... gerry conlon who was locked up for many years partly as a result of the types of attitudes being expressed here..

He's a muslim or he's a muslim extremist... or hes a muslim so probably is an extremist... ...so shoot him or lock him up .. and if sometimes you lock up or kill an innocent muslim.... well sure the pikice dobt make mistakes.....

The police dont make mistakes that is...

Unfortunately British citizenship cannot be removed if it leaves a person stateless.

However, if they have dual nationality, British citizenship can be removed.

These young men are not first generation immigrants and may not have dual citizenship.

Absolutely - these men that have gone over should no be allowed back in England.

Extremists that are banned in other countries are allowed to preach here? The government need to wake up. The Isis up rising has been happening for a while yet the governments failed to acknowledge it.

To the poster who suggested ISIS are the same as EDL ... hardly!!!

saoirse31 - Quite.

GoshAnneGorilla -

That's really interesting and informative. You say you despair at the fact people here in the UK think it's fighting over religion. It's actually quite difficult to form a realistic picture of what's going on, it's always complicated and that's only the side of the story the media chooses to feed us.

saoirse31

Well when they are sat on tv spouting their hate down a camera lens , I don't think there is going to be any mistake of their intentions.

I was listening to the radio this afternoon and apparently under British laws these men are classed as terrorists so if they do come home they can be charged and tried and imprisoned for it.
I can't understand why they do it either, but if I did then I would be worried !!

onto a sticky wicket when you try to define extremism, though

it's not an objective thing, it's a collective opinion, and they can change

The choice of language used in the media is interesting. "Muslim extremist", it would seem that the two words have become linked in such a way that when you say one you think of the other. One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. And I agree with GoshAnne there are other vested interests in stirring up the Middle East. The new Pax Americana is very much about having reason to intervene in the ME because America fears China's growing need of oil and seeks to hold onto its global hegemony.

War and violent struggle has always relied on and exploited the idealism of young poeple particularly young men. These young men believe what they are doing is right. It is the people who spend their time convincing these young people that taking up arms in these conflicts that should be targeted.

DH and the DS are muslim and I remember some friends of ours saying that they had banned Omar Bakri Mohammed from preaching at their mosque because they didn't want him poisoning their children's minds. There are plenty muslim parents who are extremely worried about radical preachers targeting their children - you only have to look at the reaction of Nassar Muthana's family.

It concerns me that, there is a perception that muslims aren't really that concerned about extremism and that creates a divide between muslims and non muslims. Many muslim parents are very worried about extremism because its their children who are risk from these radical preachers. This is what Nassar Muthana's father said
""Someone is driving those kids to do this problem. Ask those sheiks to send their sons and daughters to fight. They only send other people's children, making a problem for the whole community.""

That was brave. Not often someone on MN stands up for EDL.

Teenage DS follows some hate mongering anti-Islamic pseudo-patriotic thinly veiled violence advocating page on Facebook. He says it makes him "laugh". I'm monitoring & twitching to hand him a copy of The Islamist. I thought DS said the hate-mongerers endorsed with EDL, but if I have slurred EDL I apologise.