to think that I am not a scared ignoramus - Scotland

[iamnotacoward]

That's it really.
My FB feed, and real life conversations with people voting yes. So much aggression, and complete inability to accept that people have a different view point. So much talk of people being unpatriotic if they vote no, or that they just 'need to be educated' or need the facts explained to them so they can 'stop being scared' and vote yes.
I have educated myself, and yes I do fear for Scotland's future if a yes vote wins. That doesn't make me cowardly though, or someone who is too scared of change to vote yes.

As for JK Rowling negativity, its one of the things that's shocked me most and reinforces my view that Scotland is an old fashioned misogynistic country in its attitude towards intelligent, successfully women.

I was really astonished at Salmond's fawning over the lottery winners, who he had no interest in until they gifted millions of pounds of their unearned income. He gave the impression that he could be bought and that money talks. But don't forget that the SNP is a party which does not attract much other funding compared to other parties, apart from the lottery winner's donation, it and the independence fund are very sparsely funded.

But overall, I get the impression that intelligent women who can think for themselves would be quite oppressed in an independent Scotland. Unless you tow the line in the public sector perhaps. Of course we are all to be sent out to work once we have children to pay for state funded childcare but presumably that is just to pay tax and not to benefit ourselves.

Its pretty obvious from my job title (which is listed on FB) that I do a job which involves understanding constitutional issues, yet I still get patronising (usually misspelt) comments from invariably men on FB that I have never met should I have the temerity to comment on FB threads on independence, along the lines that they can help me to find reading materials so I can understand the debate better. Its incredibly patronising, aimed at a very low level of intelligence and possibly the worse thing is that it is done perfectly seriously and not at all tongue in cheek. They actually think that a poor wummin, no matter how eruditely she writes, needs guidance as to what to read and where to find it. The level of deep stupidity in so many people as revealed in this debate is incredibly depressing.

I get the same type of comments chelsy, primarily from someone who likes to try and lecture me on economics but who responds to my points or questions by pasting unattributed responses from other people. Comments like "what is it you are not clear on and I will help you to understand " got my blood boiling.

He knows what job I do although I strongly suspect that he actually has no idea what it is, the training involved and why it means that I almost certainly understand the economics stuff he tries to explain better than he does. But I'm just a little woman so I couldn't possibly..

And for this they expect us to pay more tax StatisticallyChallenged?

I have a great suspicion that a lot of supporters of the independence cause are unsuccessful middle aged man, who believe the world owes them a living and cannot get over the fact that those who are more intelligent, who work harder and have more integrity have done better than them, live in nicer houses, drive nicer cars, etc.. Rather than admit their own failings, there must be some deep rooted Wrong out there that is causing it. And of course an independent Scotland, with its already highest public sector employment in Scotland, would provide many opportunities for this type. The Scottish Parliament has already made a fine start by licensing various activities so as to only be provided by approved contractors - in male dominated industries.

There are women who fit this model as well, just less of them. There is a reason the independence movement consistently shows less support from women in the polls.

If the no vote prevails, life will go on as it has before.

Will it? Do you have confirmation of that? Because my biggest fear in the event of a No vote is that Westminster (whoever wins the 2015 election) will see a failure to vote for independence as a mandate to systematically dismantle the devolved government and we'll lose any ability we have to run Scottish institutions in a way that suits Scotland. I would love reassurance that a No vote will result in no change.

I know the No parties are trotting out the DevoMax option now but they're not confirming that it will be definite; it's just a possibility. I can't help thinking that it's more likely to be the opposite result.

I'm interested to hear that Westminster is about to publish a paper on independence. Somewhat overdue, in my opinion, but surprising, as I'd been told that Westminster departments had been banned from even hypothetical planning for a Yes vote. Hopefully, if they do publish something, they will triple check their facts and statistics as its embarrassing how badly wrong they've been so far.

Reading with interest - still don't know which way I'll vote. A No more likely than yes at this point.

However, I've had a few conversations with young people, graduates who are enthusiastically 'yes', including DD who is a recent politics graduate from Edinburgh university. She, and many others, feel frustrated at having to look for jobs outwith Scotland, ther ebeing fewer opportunities here. One strength of young Scottish people at Scottish universities is that it's easy to be known - as in, Scotland's small and I suspect that among undergraduates they can nealry all connect by knowing someone who knows someone. This is a relatively tight community that can work together. And these are the people on whom a lot of the work will fall - and whilst this isn't a political argument of any strength, there's a lot of energy and enthusiams among the young people that is there to be used.

Sadly skolastica I'm not convinced that independence will produce all these opportunities your dd and her friends hope for. There may be more in a direct political field admittedly so they may benefit but I think that a fair number of traditional graduate jobs might reduce at least in the short term.

I just don't think that the true impacts are clear enough.

She, and many others, feel frustrated at having to look for jobs outwith Scotland, ther ebeing fewer opportunities here.

I agree with Statistically that independence will produce jobs for all the graduates that want to stay in Scotland. Maybe in twenty or thirty years, but not immediately. It's very telling that the majority of university polls have rejected independence.

Thanks everyone, by the way. We're so delighted

*will not

You just need to read some of the comments further up the thread to see that a lot of firms, even small to medium-sized businesses, are holding fire to see how things pan out before committing to further investment in Scotland. I don't understand how someone looking to leave university within the next five years would see independence as something that's going to help you get a graduate position.

Chelsy- the dead did get counted as nos in 79. This is a fact.

When you try arguing that a lack of a yes was a no in a vote where all lack of yeses were counted as nos then you discredit the rest of your arguments.

I think for people who are well educated and politically aware it is difficult to imagine how ignorant lots of people are.

When I chap on doors and go to public meetings (rather than talking to my generally well educated friends) I find that a large proportion if people don't know many basic facts about politics. Eg the difference between an mp and an msp, that the NHS and education are devolved, that Scots law has always been separate, that the snp and bnp are different parties, some really basic stuff.

So yes when you are campaigning you often have to give out messages which can be understood by everyone, not just people with degrees etc.

And as for the scare stories- they were all used before devolution- they were shown to be false. Credibility is a big problem for bt.

I don't think BT is the only one with a credibility problem tbh. I don't trust either side and don't base my decisions on what they say

the dead did get counted as nos in 79. This is a fact.*

No it's not.

In 1979 the vote had to be over 50% on the day and over 40% of the electorate. The dead were not counted as part of the electorate: Millan deducted 90,002 people from the electorate. This meant that the Yes campaign had to receive 1,498,845 votes, instead of 1,534,846.

www.scottishpoliticalarchive.org.uk/wb/media/40rule.pdf

Bognor's study

www.scottishpoliticalarchive.org.uk/wb/pages/referendum/1979/40-rule/electoral-roll.php

You can't just estimate non voters- that completely goes against the principles of democracy!

Imagine if our elections were based on estimates rather than actual votes!

A no vote isn't a vote for the status quo.

We don't know who will win in May 2015.

We d

We don't know if we will be taken out of Europe.

We don't know the long term impact of the growth of UKIP.

We don't know what changes will be made to the Barnett formula.

We don't know how the further austerity cuts are going to be made.

The status quo is not an option.

But the future has always been uncertain. At no time in history has anybody been able to state with confidence what the coming years hold.

Why now, is the status quo suddenly not an option?

Will an independent Scotland be able to predict the future?

skolastica One strength of young Scottish people at Scottish universities is that it's easy to be known - as in, Scotland's small and I suspect that among undergraduates they can nealry all connect by knowing someone who knows someone. This is a relatively tight community that can work together

That's a good point. I think when as a country you produce young people who don't want to go out into the world outside their home nation, live or work abroad, but who instead want to stay amongst people they know, you produce a very insular society. Its one of the things I dislike most about Scotland - that no matter how clever you are, how good at your job, how hard you work, someone whose father knew their father is more likely to get the top job -and quite possibly screw it up--. For a proclaimed socialist country, its very important to come from the "right family" in some sections of Scottish society.

Take Norway as an example. Its a far more cohesive country than Scotland, and possibly even more insular. Until oil was discovered, its history of independence was as a poverty stricken backwater. Despite oil, it still has 20% of its working population on benefits of some kind. Its somewhere I've visited and while the scenery is nice, its not run in a way which makes it very attractive to the average non-Norwegian to live in (outwith a necessity to be there for work). In fact, theres always been a history of outward migration from Norway.

I'm not sure a 50% vote would be a good thing. I think it should have been set at 60% yes for independence.

If 51% vote yes and Scotland becomes an independent country, what happens if 2% of people change their minds a couple of years later? And there probably would be a swing back the other way when the disruption happens.

If they change their minds, there's nothing they can do! There's no probationary period. Imagine if Lib Dem voters had had an opportunity for a rethink after the last election...

I'm surprised to hear of young Scottish people being insular (if is understood the inference) Scottish people have a long history of travelling and settling around the world.

Its one of the things I dislike most about Scotland - that no matter how clever you are, how good at your job, how hard you work, someone whose father knew their father is more likely to get the top job -and quite possibly screw it up--. For a proclaimed socialist country, its very important to come from the "right family" in some sections of Scottish society

Chelsy, do you really find this to be a particularly Scottish thing? Not in my experience but then maybe we're from different parts of Scotland? Or different educational backgrounds? I'm from Glasgow, state educated and have really never encountered this 'good families' or 'jobs for the boys' business. Sure, people give work to their friends and families, no doubt too often in some cases, but I don't think it's endemic.

And I do find it quite a disservice to young Scottish people to suggest that insularity is a widespread thing. I've taught university students for the past 5 years in French and these guys were mostly home students, but all learning at least one language, eager to get out into the world and keen to be seen as worldly and well-travelled.

I'm 28 now and honestly don't have a single friend of my age who doesn't scorn the idea of shortbread tin Scottishness. In general, we want to be seen as open and outward looking, anything but parochial and ignorant.

Chelsy,simply don't think thats representative of all scotland,nor js jt scottish phenomena
Nepotism is unfortunately prevalent in many countries,its not particularly scottish
I grew up in a scheme,my da had regular job,and ive never been asked about him in my career.its not been help or hindrance

I don't see particular evidence of nepotism either tbh - no more so than elsewhere.