to think that I am not a scared ignoramus - Scotland

[iamnotacoward]

That's it really.
My FB feed, and real life conversations with people voting yes. So much aggression, and complete inability to accept that people have a different view point. So much talk of people being unpatriotic if they vote no, or that they just 'need to be educated' or need the facts explained to them so they can 'stop being scared' and vote yes.
I have educated myself, and yes I do fear for Scotland's future if a yes vote wins. That doesn't make me cowardly though, or someone who is too scared of change to vote yes.

I've experienced the same thing. My job is really quite likely to move to England in the event of independence - that's just the reality of it. The majority of the role in my profession would probably go that way too IME There will doubtless be other professions which would benefit, but mine isn't one of them.

I've been told I'm "too young to be so fearful", "your job doesn't matter", "just get a different career", "where will you be in 70 or 80 years, you'll be dead and what sort of world do you want to leave behind" etc etc.

Should emphasize it's not my only reason for voting no by a long way. In quite a few discussions I've said that for me personally there are too many unknowns/unanswered questions and got the response "have you read the White Paper" to which my response is yes, I have, but it doesn't answer my questions. They're always utterly shocked that I don't believe everything in the White Paper will happen.

No, Freddie, it's not 'Soviet.' If you'd known the awfulness of living under the Soviet Union and the sacrifices some of my colleagues made to come to Scotland so they could think and write and VOTE without fear, you wouldn't be saying that.

People keep going on about these aggressive yes voters online suppressing free speech and dissent. You are not living under a dictatorship, so argue, ask questions. Or just put it down to dicks on the internet.

I really don't know why anyone would be against Scottish independence. I'd vote for Yorkshire independence if it was put to a referendum. The smaller and more localized government is, the better IMO.

I suggest you start by reading this thread tucson

YANBU. I am so tired of it.

OP, because of the Schengen agreement which allows freer travel between all the nations signed up to it. The UK and Ireland are not signed up to it, so as far as I understand if we were able to join the EU and were compelled to sign Schengen we'd have easier travel with in the EU and a handful of other countries but it would be harder to travel to rUK and Ireland.

We could sign the Schengen agreement without EU membership (Norway, Switzerland and Iceland have done this) or we could do neither and make our own arrangement with rUK and Ireland.

I've got a lot of Yes voters on my FB feed as well and am very tired of all the articles and links moaning on about media bias.

Unfortunately (and this is only my impression) I also think that many of my colleagues and others are voting yes with the assumption that they'll be able to keep their jobs post independence, when in fact some of them are likely to lose them, as the services they provide will not be allowed to be delivered by a separate country. Fair enough if they've realised this and are going into it with eyes wide open but I'm not convinced.

I say this as I've got experience of another independence referendum in my home country and there were loads of people voting yes with the assumption that they would be able to keep their jobs in the federal government (of what would have been a different country).

One of my colleagues was on a Commission looking at what could / should happen post independence in an important sector in Scotland. Final report was a bit of a fairy tale where they kept all the stuff they wanted to keep and got rid of everything they didn't want. Can't see the post independence negotiations working quite like that.

But I think the Better Together campaign has been quite shit. I can see why it is pissing people off but I don't think that's a good reason to vote yes.

All no voters in this house and will remain so until the Yes campaign actually produces facts rather than Braveheart rhetoric.

I'm completely undecided and annoyed that I haven't seen any FACTS from either side - it's all too vague for me. The one question I want answered comprehensively is that if Scotland is such a financial drain on England and we are subsidised to the hilt, why on earth is David Cameron et all fighting so hard to keep us?

I find that "No" voters are almost furtive - it is like announcing yourself as a member of the resistance. I can only relax once I am in the company of definite "No"s. We were pursued twice by a neighbour, waving leaflets and getting aggressive after we said we didn't want them. I also had a parent at a parents' meeting use my comment about his son being good at debate and discussion to try to get me to vote, "Yes". Facebook is a scary place and I know of several families being split by it and two married couples who cannot discuss it at all.

Also, being English means when No prevails, as is likely, I will be blamed for preventing the dreams of rainbows and sparkly fairy dust from coming to pass.

Voting "Yes" is like voting for good weather. It might come, it sounds good but Eck and his pals have none of the power they think they will have to make things they are promising come to pass.

The one question I want answered comprehensively is that if Scotland is such a financial drain on England and we are subsidised to the hilt, why on earth is David Cameron et all fighting so hard to keep us?

Several factors.

1. the embarrassment of 'losing' Scotland, which is after all a significant chunk of the island. The next General Election is next year too.
2. the need to sort out the 'divorce', which will be have to cover every part of the modern state. It'll be very long and very expensive.
3. as a smaller country, Scotland is more likely to feel the shocks of the world economy etc. We would still be very close to/ entwined with England and if independence went catastrophically wrong, there would be knock on effects, economically, socially (through immigration) etc.

ChelsyHandy - When Nicola Sturgeon starts wheedling on....about anything.....I just cringe.

I remember the way mining communities in Scotland were torn apart during 1984-1985, and the wounds that still haven't healed from then.

Which ever way this unnecessary and insanely divisive vote goes, may God help Scotland after September.

I was inclined to vote no then I read the whole of the white paper all 5-600 pages of it, now I am definitely voting no it is a huge wish list published at taxpayers expense; it really does not answer questions properly at all it puts up the opposition argument like bales of straw then congratulates itself when it knocks them over.

I have read extensively in the subject and no seems the only reasonable and logical position when something is permanent you need the details in advance; not choose this and hope the details will work out later but whether they do or not you're stuck with it

also it seems it is not just independence you are voting on
there is no logical way to vote if for instance you were pro-independence but believed the nuclear deterrent should remain on the Clyde or pro-independence but do not want to join EU

I understand not wanting to be governed by westminister in part but don't get why Brussels is a better option the EU seems more corrupt and less democratic than westminister, while I have no doubts that scotland could join EU easily, I do doubt that it will get the opt outs and concessions that present UK has

also I think if there is any type of sterling zone there will be strict parameters set by bank of England on fiscal balance sheets so just borrowing to end "austerity" would not be possible there is absolutely no way that Scotland would have equal weight on board of bank of england proportional yes but not enough to actually influence policy

in the event of a yes vote I think it would be rapidly found that all the aces were in the hands of rUK

there is the constant accusation that any argument from better together is either scaremongering or its unpatriotic or people are scared
just look what happened to JK Rowling just for expressing her opinion which is a right in any democratic country

I too think things could be pretty unpleasant after September. It increasingly looks like the vote will be close - either way there are going to be a truckload of unhappy people. I hate the way this seems to be pulling people apart

both myself and DH would of course vote for Alex and independence if he could reduce rainfall on west coast by 50% and eradicate the midge
( you can tell you has got bitten despite anti-midge spray midge hat net etc)

I'm a no voter, so is DP. My family are raving lefties/ yes voters and I just nod and smile when the chat comes up. I agree with AndrewOgg that loads of people who say they want I dependence with privately vote no.

At the moment, voting no is about as uncool as it gets. So not all no voters are admitting to it.

I'm just ignoring the endless FB stuff.

i also hope vote is reasonable decisive not 49.5% and 50.5%

So, Santana, it's all about England and how it will affect them, not what's ultimately best for Scotland?

Santana was explaining why Cameron is campaigning to keep Scotland in the union. Which is a different point to the one you're making.

And I think it's fair to say that's there's probably some Treasury forecasts that show some less optimistic numbers than what the Yes campaign have put out thus far - so in that sense, they're fighting for what's best for Scotland.

Are you really undecided? That's a very loaded statement. You asked about why Cameron doesn't want to have Scotland secede under his watch.

Yes, Santana was just answering the question you asked, Areall. I don't have a vote in the referendum, but I like having this username to annoy the yessers. I will be v surprised if they reach 40%.

Plus 2 out of my 3 points mentioned the length and cost of separation, plus the vulnerability of an independent Scottish economy. So no, it's not all about England.

My main point that it seemed like a very pro England' stance from a, supposedly, British prime minster. And yes, I'm definitely undecided, I just want to ensure I'm not blinded by propaganda from either side.

I keep quiet about being a No IRL. I just don't want hassle. I have read the White Paper, it sounded great, but so does my DS letter to Santa. I simply am not convinced that independence is the best path for Scotland or my dc. Devo-max with further powers ceded to the Scottish Government whilst remaining in the UK is my choice.

I'm proud to be Scottish and happy to be British, I'd like to stay that way.