to think that I am not a scared ignoramus - Scotland

[iamnotacoward]

That's it really.
My FB feed, and real life conversations with people voting yes. So much aggression, and complete inability to accept that people have a different view point. So much talk of people being unpatriotic if they vote no, or that they just 'need to be educated' or need the facts explained to them so they can 'stop being scared' and vote yes.
I have educated myself, and yes I do fear for Scotland's future if a yes vote wins. That doesn't make me cowardly though, or someone who is too scared of change to vote yes.

Yes is a vote for disaster and mayhem independence

There is no such thing as an intelligent facebook discussion. No matter how well a topic is going, some idiot inevitably jumps in and derails the thing.

TBH I don't think it will be over after September. One side will be disappointed and all that energy will have to go somewhere. A land slide vote either way will cool things down but I don't think it will be a landslide. It's going to be a very close run thing.

So lets say it's only just a no vote. Do you really think that some of the yes voters will be happy with that? Of course not. They will keep pushing until eventually Scotland becomes independent. TBH I think it is almost inevitable in the long run. Question is how will they push for independence? Will it stay as a political debate? I'm worried that it may not.

If I was friends with someone (or a canvasser was at my door) and they were pressing me consistently with stats and arguments about why 'Yes' was the best way to vote, I may well decide to make positive noises in order to prevent a heated discussion or just to get them to stop talking. Doesn't mean I'll have changed my mind. Generally speaking, a person who is so invested in a campaign or agenda is highly unlikely to have their mind changed by discussing it with me. So why bother? Let them crack on, save the aggro and we'll see how it pans out in September.

So fed up with it. Its as if the lunatics are giving the impression they have taken over the asylum. Nothing against independence in principle if it involved a small successful country being run by intelligent, successful people, but I object to being patronised and being told what to think, Soviet style, by people who are more stupid than me. I also object to being plunged into political and economic uncertainty whilst living in what should be a relatively safe first world country.

It really has opened my eyes as to how many badly educated and downright thick and thuggish people there are living in Scotland. I have yet to encounter one Yes supporter who can navigate their way around the White Paper, never mind its legal implications.

I don't think it will happen (independence), more and more people I meet spontaneously say how awful a prospect it is, but then I accept I might just know a higher proportion of more intelligent and decent people than the average.

Bearing in mind Norway is often used as an example which voted 99.5% in favour of independence over a hundred years ago before women had the vote, the Scottish case is rather different and would involve an awful lot of people who are against it having their lives disrupted. I can't imagine that many of the brightest and best staying in a tiny country of just over 5 million with high taxes when the Scots are known for emigrating all over the world.

Even if it fails, its going to go on and on until the taxes get punitively high and more and more useless politicians get paid to be more and more useless, telling people how wonderful they are doing and stirring up racial and class hatred. Its awful to be living in a country with such an uncertain atmosphere and such a politically divisive lunatic fringe.

And yes, everyone who speaks against the Yes vote either gets abused or told off for being stupid/cowardly/misinformed. Yet they will want your money off them in higher taxes to fund them to continue to do this, because as far as I can see, most of the No supporters don't earn very much.

Sorry weatherall but that's just yes propaganda. Of course people know there is a referendum, and most of them HAVE found out the facts. Yes voters just cannot see past their own dogma as so many of them seem to be fanatics, so comfort themselves that people who don't see the one True Path are ignorant and deluded. When in fact they are just sensible!

Armani - yes is a vote in favour of independence (hope you don't live in Scotland!)

Couldn't agree more OP and thanks for posting what more than a few people I know feel afraid to say publicly - I feel bullied into silence by the stream of arguments and belitting thrown at anyone who dares say no.

Accusations that I'm scared, ill-informed, uneducated, a tory, sectarian, gullibly believing of the BBC and all the other organisations that are puppets of Westminster, etc, like I don't have the right and the intelligence to evaluate evidence and arguments and form my own view, which is just as valid as that of the yes campaign.

A no here. People I know don't generally discuss it. I've stated I'm voting no and haven't had any grief about it.

I did see on a thread elsewhere that employees at one workplace are so pissed off with the yessers (new word) unrelenting attempts to 'persuade' and 'convince' them that they went to their union.

The union' advice. Tell them you are voting yes for the sake of peace and make use of the secret ballot.

If the result is yes I will accept it with good grace. I don't think the yessers will feel the same. Me, I'll be happy with Devo Max.

I wouldn't be planning on North Sea oil revenues funding an independent Scotland to the degree that the SNP would like.

Rising costs, dwindling productivity, aging installations and marginal returns are leading to oil companies shelving projects as they become uneconomic and it is more cost effective to invest elsewhere.

Only a small downwards fluctuation in the oil price could have a profound effect on North Sea production. It is likely that production can only continue long term if there are sufficient government incentives.

That's a hell of a gamble.

I am Scottish and proud to be, but I genuinely fear for the future if the vote is yes, as others have said, there are too many unanswered questions. The yes people by enlarge just shout you down if you try to have a sensible conversation with them. They just use the old chestnuts - patriotism , 'the English' , ' Freedom!' Etc. I now say nothing to anyone and hope on the day that common sense prevails.
I also think that the ' Yes 'have given no thought to the fact that if they win , that's it, no going back when the hits the fan.

DD2 and me are in the No camp, most of my FB friends are very firmly for a Yes vote, and we've had the abuse and name calling too, they don't seem able to see past the Braveheart aspect of it all.

I'm Scottish born and bred, but I'm also British, and I want to remain in the UK.

What I've also found offensive and shameful this week is the same people posting very anti English stuff about England's exit from the a World Cup. I hate football and couldn't care less who wins, we haven't watched a single game or anything to do with it, but I find all this stuff offensive, and an embarrassment

I'm going to venture onto this thread to say that I am a Yes.

There is a huge amount of uncertainty whichever way the vote goes - and on balance I think an Independent scotland is the best option for the future (though will be difficult while things settle)

As for abuse, there are numpties on both sides.

Oops S**t hits the fan !

Thanks. I don't live in Scotland. I would like Scotland to stay as part of the UK though :)

yANBU, my heart and my head are both saying no. I wouldn't admit to planning to vote no in certain company, it can be very intimidating.

So the op's response to a counter argument is to call another poster a liar?

Nice!

And you are complaining about yes supporters?

There is far more uncertainty with a Yes vote Itsallgoing - even the SNP don't seem sure, which is why the White Paper was so light on detail.

"Och, it's all gonnae be smashing" is simply not enough - the SNP massively underestimated the Scottish people if they truly believed we would all just say "oh, a'right then" and follow them blindly without a greater level of detail than they have deigned to provide us with.

Eternalstudent, I know what you mean. You start to see how wars begin, the enmity and anger that's arisen so quickly. It's divided people. I worry what will happen to the most fervent yessers should they lose - they're not going to shrug their shoulders and say, oh well, never mind.

I think it's propaganda weatherall, which is what I posted about in the first place! You've confirmed exactly what I'm talking about - you said that most people who have educated themselves tend to be yes voters. And suggested that no voters are uneducated and misinformed. I think it's yes mythology I'm afraid.
I also have to say that by and large of the people I know the well educated ones are voting no, and those who are less so are yes voters. That's just my circle, so I won't generalise.

A friend was recently asked which way he was voting in a job interview. He is in the NO camp but felt so awkward he tried to sidestep the question by saying he hadn't decided yet.

I have visions of a future independent Scotland where you won't get anywhere unless you trot out a little speech about how wonderful an independent Scotland is, a bit like some Chinese sports stars do when asked how they feel after winning.

An independent Scotland might be a surprisingly empty place. But that's ok, because SNP plans are for mass immigration.

No-once called anyone "a liar" - come on weatherall, I know it's hard for you as it goes against the grain, but do get your facts straight

This makes me so sad, its just such a stupid, self defeating way to behave.
I'm strongly committed Yes voter, I've done my research and I feel its best for the country my children will grow up in. I respect those who've done the same and feel No is the way to go.

It is highly frustrating that in the arguably most important vote for Scotland that people are thinking about voting No because they think Alex Salmond will become dictator for life or the Gairloch will be annexed by rUK or we won't be able to travel or a million other mad reasons that I've heard.
However, if it goes the way I want it go, we'll need everyone pulling together to build the nation we deserve. Its not going to be easy and us Yes people need you No people to help us do it. 17th of September isn't the day the whole country takes off over the rainbow to Valhalla, everything will still be the same and its pure madness to alienate the people that we need to effect change.

Agree with you op. This is the most aggressive political campaign I can remember in Scotland. It has really nasty undertones. "Traitors" and "unpatriotic" are the least of the insults.
I fear that some of the divides that are being opened up will take years to heal - if they ever do! The aggressive, pompous, sanctimonious behaviour and rhetoric modelled by the SNP MSPs is aped and repeated by many of their supporters unfortunately.