To think school trips are too expensive?

[lucyhoward]

My son has just come home from school for half term with a letter about a school watersports trip in France next summer. Whilst I am sure it will be great fun I am not sure whether we can justify the £500 price tag. By the time we have sent spending money and paid for any kit they will need we will be lucky to have change from £600 I imagine.

Is this even something schools should be getting involved in? Surely holidays should be a family thing?

Teachers don't get extra paid for running trips. In fact, usually they're in the holidays so we don't get paid at all.

I've never been on a school residential that didn't leave me out of pocket, what with travelling costs, my own childcare, spending money etc.

In answer to deaky's question about whether we pay for our places, no, we don't, for the same reason that cabin crew don't pay for their flights.

I like to think that I'm saintly & forbearing (I'm not), but I'm not quite enough of a martyr to think that paying full whack to go on holiday with 30 dc not my own is a better use of my hard-earned than spending it on a holiday with my family....

The holiday companies provide free places for teachers (usually on a 1:10 ratio) on the basis that we supervise the kids. Otherwise, they'd have to hire their own staff - costing them all the travel & accommodation PLUS the salary that supervising teachers aren't getting - in order to collect your dc from school & escort them throughout the trip. This would add quite a bit to the overheads, &, therefore, the cost to parents.

They are not usually in the holidays - not at all. They always take place in term time in Scotland.

Maybe there should be a float in the school available for students who's parents are means tested. This could be added to by fundraising events- cake sales, concerts, sponsored runs, charitable contributions from local agencies and business, etc

I do feel that schools should offer equal educational opportunities for every student, irrespective of parent's ability to pay for extra curricular trips/ residential courses.

Maybe there needs to be a charity set up to provide funds to those who qualify, and are in need.

I think the Scottish education system is generally more civilised!

Our trips aren't in school time. Occasionally, we might get to leave on the last day of term, but it's unusual - there are three separate trips running this week as we're off for half term, none of which impinge on teaching & learning time at all.

Our HT is very anti anyone doing anything that could be perceived as a jolly in term-time; so whilst educational day trips for whole year groups are run then, residentials, which tend to be optional 'enrichment' rather than a compulsory part of the curriculum, are always in the hols.

To be fair, I think he has a point. Missing teaching staff & collapsed classes is unfair on the students left in school.

I completely agree - if schools are going to offer trips abroad (which usually have no real link to learning outcomes other than providing an opportunity to snog your girlfriend and view the inside of the Paris Hollister) then I would rather they were offered in the school holidays.

I'm generally completely against schools acting as travel agents though - perhaps because the schools in Scotland tend to be more socially diverse (which I think is a great thing), and so what tends to happen is that a small number of children from the more affluent end swan off on trips which their classmates will never in a month of Sundays be able to afford. The idea that this teaches those classmates to understand from a young that there are haves and have nots in this world is just obscene imo.

There are ways round that, though - we make good use of Pupil Premium to ensure that no-one misses a trip through inability to pay (missing one because they went on one last year & it's their sister's turn for a trip this year, or because the family would rather all have a week in the sun than pack one kid off skiiing is obviously a different thing...).

& I'll have you know my Latin trip to Rome & Pompeii was very very edumacational indeed. The Leisure & Tourism jaunt to Disneyland Paris, perhaps harder to justify, although I'm sure my colleague who teachers L&T would argue the point!

Pupil Premium has not been implemented in Scotland - there really isn't any funding stream which enables pupils to attend trips abroad (certainly not at my DCs school anyway). If you can't afford them you don't go.

My son's trip to Rome and the Bay of Naples, which was organised by the RMPS dept, was very enjoyable by all accounts. Did they learn much? No, I can't say his knowledge and understanding of RMPS increased one iota! The trips to Disneyland Paris, Boston, Mexico, Spain and so on are also very limited in what they impart to the pupils, according to other parents - but the kids have fun.

Easy to say 'just don't send your dc' but very hard in practise when friends are going and they're getting upset and feeling left out. No parent wants to do that. Schools shouldn't really be putting that pressure on families.

We asked our school to give advanced notice of trips, so we now have a rough idea of what will come up for each school year for the next five years. We've allowed each of the DC one major trip in their five years at secondary school - their choice, but so far we've had two ski-ing trips (which I welcome, because we'll not go ski-ing as a family).

We've planned and budgeted for this since before secondary school (when we naively thought the only big trip was the ski-ing trip). It can be affordable if you prepare well ahead, and if your children know they'll have one opportunity for a trip with their friends, they should be able to accept the 'no' in response to other requests.

Birthday and Christmas money has also contributed to the trips.

What I do get cross about is adventure holidays abroad when there are plenty of places in the UK which don't require a long journey or a passport to get to.

It can be affordable to certain families in certain circumstances. For many families though, a trip abroad to Japan or Spain or even France (from here in Scotland) is simply not possible, even with planning and budgeting.

I run the Battlefields trip. 4 nights in France/Belgium £240 all in. The letters went out last March for this July, so there will have been well over a year to pay. Everyone pays in installments and if children show interest but their parents are unable to afford it we do have means to subsidise their places.

We have also been on the pilot of the free trip that Gove is sending 2 pupils from each school on, and will be going on the real thing too. The 4 pupils benefiting from this were selected because they qualify for Pupil Premium funds.

As for the old chestnut of it being a jolly for the teachers, you try it. 40 kids in a foreign country, nothing stressful about that at all. I recall spending the night in a French hospital having had to sign the consent form for a general anaesthetic so a pupil could have pins put in a broken arm. That was a right laugh. Or the pupil who had appendicitis diagnosed as a stomach bug by a French doctor and we had to be met by an ambulance as we got off the ferry in Dover.

I don't understand this whole thing of expensive 'educational' trips in school time. Japan and New York FFS

If they are related to the curriculum then I thought the law was that no child should be excluded on the grounds of cost. So surely every child in the class should be able to go regardless of family circumstances?

And if they aren't related to the curriculum then why the hell are they taking place in school time? In this day and age where you can no longer take your DC on a family holiday (even an educational or activity one!) in term time then where do schools get off taking the pupils whose parents can afford it and leaving the others behind?

Can any of the teachers involved in planning them enlighten me?

It is all very well saying that parents can save up and pay in installments but £20/month may well be all the spare that a family has. All they need is for the washing machine/fridge/car breakdown and that spare is gone.

How many parents really want to share their financial circumstances with their DCs' school? My DCs' primary school office was as leaky as a sieve. I would have hated the idea of having to put up with the patronising head tilt from the class teacher - 'is everything alright?' at the next Parents' Evening.

qwerty they are often justified by saying the trip is run in holiday time. The problem is that they are advertised in school time. This has the effect of making them appear to be more educational than they in fact are.

But for example a poster above stated that the French teachers all went on a 2 week trip leaving the pupils not on the trip with inadequate teaching for the duration - so it does happen and I don't understand why it is allowed to happen!

I'd question the Governors why teachers were away from their usual classroom duties for two weeks in term time. That they are away at all is a rarity at our school.

We don't have Governors up here, so no-one to question other than the management team or the parent council (of which I'm a member) - but no school trips are ever taken in the school holidays.

qwerty I think I might be that poster! I suppose I distinguish between the allegedly educational language trips and the absolutely 'fun' trips. For the language trips it will be alleged that the students do lots of cultural activities. Now, anecdotally they dont but that is another thing!

For the 'fun' trips we have seen the History shopping field trip to New York, the PGL water sports trip, various ski trips. None of those had any educational merit but were heavily marketed by the school. Does the school get a kick back? If they did then I might be more in favour of them simply as fund raisers.

I think that it is morally wrong for schools to get involved in marketing 'holiday' trips which will automatically exclude many students on the grounds of affordability. Anyone who attempts to justify this by saying that its just tough and poorer students should just suck it up should be ashamed of themselves. Do they not think that poorer students are already aware of the fact that they are 'have nots'?

Yes GnomeDePlume I think you were!

See to my mind if a trip takes place in school time then it should be related to the National Curriculum (because otherwise, it shouldn't be happening in term time!) and so every child should be able to go - end of story. If it is in term time and only those who can afford it can go, meaning that there are children who miss out on that part of the NC - then I actually can't see how that is even legal tbh.

SirChenjin - can't the Parent Council question the management team about teachers being away in term time? There must be an appropriate channel to raise this and similar concerns with. It's a fair question.

And yy I agree tbh that state schools should be a place where children have equality of opportunity.

For all those saying, start saving early and budget blah blah blah - there are many many thousands of families for whom 'saving' for anything is an impossibility. Really, there are. Families for whom saving for a skiing trip is as unmanageable as saving for a trip to the Moon. Families who rely on breakfast clubs and food banks to keep their DC fed. And those children lose out over and over and fucking over, and to have it rubbed in their faces at school as well is horrible.

qwertypop 'If they are related to the curriculum then I thought the law was that no child should be excluded on the grounds of cost. So surely every child in the class should be able to go regardless of family circumstances?

And if they aren't related to the curriculum then why the hell are they taking place in school time?'

There's 'related to the curriculum' & 'an essential part of the curriculum'.

If the latter (eg. I think some of our Geography & History GCSE field trips) then it's in term time & we subsidise as needful - parental contributions are voluntary, no-one is excluded.

If the former (eg. an overnighter to see our GCSE Eng Lit set text in performance, followed by a theatre tour & workshop for the GCSE Drama group) then it's over a weekend/in the holidays.

Again, any child taking a relevant course is subsidised if parents can't run to it, but usually a 50%-75% discount rather than the full whack if it's not actually an integral part of the course.

The only time I have ever known any child be refused a place on a trip was when the parents had failed to pay agreed, reduced contributions, in installments, for two previous trips which the child had attended in previous years, & had refused to discuss it with school.

GnomeDePlume 'How many parents really want to share their financial circumstances with their DCs' school?'

I hate to break it to you - & I'm not saying it's necessarily right - but if your child has ever had FSM in the past 6 years, I've got that info in my markbook & I'm required to answer questions like 'How are the FSM6 students in your class making progress, relative to the rest of the cohort?' as part of my Performance Management.

So when I organise a school trip, I already know who is eligible for discount - which is then applied automatically for those students - their account on ParentPay is adjusted accordingly every time they sign up for a trip.

There's one residential (overnight theatre trip) I run which is primarily a jolly, & which roughly half of year 7 sign up for each year. The feedback we get from parents is overwhelmingly positive.

Everything else I do is firmly rooted in the curriculum.

Apart from anything, I have to demonstrate that it is or the Pupil Premium budget holder will knock me back for that funding - & without that, I could only take the ones who could easily afford it. As previous posters have said - & I agree - that would be totally inappropriate.

So far, no-one has questioned it actually. I'm quite new to the PC, and don't want to rock the boat - but I suspect that parents don't question it because they know nothing will change. School trips have always taken place, a small number of kids have always gone on them, and the rest just shrug their shoulders and get on with it.

Qwerty - I couldn't agree more with your last post.

I help run the Y7 trip to France. We go in July, Mon to Thurs in term time. The students visit a snail farm, a bakery and other cultural activities. We have a sports afternoon with a French school, where the students have to speak French. They have workbooks to do in the evenings. The trip costs £300-odd, launched in Sept. We offer it to all but realistically if not everyone paid we couldn't go. We would not go in school holiday time as that is our family time. The trip is full every year. Are we wrong?

Yes, you are chile. It gives the wrong message about the importance of attendance at school and impacts on other pupils' education.