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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think it proves lots of people want change

999 replies

adsy · 23/05/2014 07:41

That ukip are making such huge gains in the elections.
If mnetters could temper their hysteria of screaming racism, I think it is a clear indication that the fundamental principals of the party of no toEurope and no to continued mass immigration are very important to a lot of people

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
AgaPanthers · 23/05/2014 18:01

"Why is land suitable for building on just so expensive?"

Because of our planning system. The planning system doesn't allow for growth. But we admit many new immigrants. Hence enriching Blair, Cameron, Clegg, and all the rest to the tune of millions.

TucsonGirl · 23/05/2014 18:04

"Labour massively underestimated the numbers that would want to come here."
I don't think this is true at all. They knew full well the scale of what they were doing. That's why they did it. They knew they were shafting W/C people but they counted on most of them voting Labour regardless, or maybe just not voting at all. The rise of UKIP has thrown a massive spanner in the works for Labour. Because they are trying to appease two diametrically opposed factions of their voter base, and it's almost impossible to do.

Backinthering · 23/05/2014 18:04

Tuscongirl you can - I did. Unless I'm misunderstanding you in some way?

Duckierub · 23/05/2014 18:04

Tucson girl

"Would the middle classes be so happy about immigration if it was lawyers, accoutants, doctors, architects whose fees were being undercut by immigrants rather than builders, plumbers, electricians etc?"

Are you kidding? You think there is no competition from immigrants for accounting, law jobs in London/UK?

Professional jobs in the city are full of migrant workers. Ask yourself why you don't think of them as immigrants though?

22honey · 23/05/2014 18:06

'22honey you'd be eligible for whatever social welfare is available in whatever EU country you choose to move to. It's reciprocal.
I can also assure you that immigrants are not entitled to any benefits here until they have permanent leave to remain, excluding asylum seekers who get an absolute pittance.'

I already know this, you know that people can have permanent leave to remain just by being the mother or similar to someone already here? Here in Rochdale it is absoloutely crammed with Immigration offices (it is also crammed with western union send money abroad shops, make cheap phone calls to pakistan shops and other similar places to do with foreigners living here), you would definately be forgiven for thinking people were desperate to move them and their whole families over here.

Would I be able to move out of the EU and claim all those things? No, so why are tons of people from outside the EU being able to move over here, take over whole areas AND make use of the free healthcare and education?

TucsonGirl · 23/05/2014 18:07

I do think of them as immigrants. Btw I don't live in London. Most people don't. And the interests of the majority of the country have to take precedence over London.

Backinthering · 23/05/2014 18:10

It's not that easy 22honey. You can bring over a parent if they are a widow/widower and over 65 but you must be able to support them and prove that you have the income to do so, they won't be entitled to benefits.
They'd then get leave to remain only after some years here.
And that's what the rules were at the time when I looked into them, they've probably tightened up the criteria further now.

22honey · 23/05/2014 18:10

Yes, Londoners and Southerners always seem to believe everything revolves around them (mind you, given the government they could be forgiven for believing this) and sod the rest of the country.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 23/05/2014 18:11

You specifically mentioned Europe 22honey in your post at 17:50.

Duckierub · 23/05/2014 18:12

"I do think of them as immigrants. "

Then why did you say "Would the middle classes be so happy about immigration if it was lawyers, accoutants, doctors, architects whose fees were being undercut by immigrants rather than builders, plumbers, electricians etc?"

Puzzledandpissedoff · 23/05/2014 18:13

Some of the remarks made on here (with regard to who people vote for) are really offensive and alarmingly vitriolic

Indeed Hmm Like it or not, we live in a democracy and people can vote for who they like whether others agree with them or not

I've just listened a radio phone in where a UKIP voter was told that "people like you shouldn't be allowed to vote." As I said before, this is exactly the attitude which allows the far right to flourish

Duckierub · 23/05/2014 18:14

Tucsongirl

Could you tell me exactly what immigrants get for free when they come here?

Thank you

BornFreeButinChains · 23/05/2014 18:14

22honey you'd be eligible for whatever social welfare is available in whatever EU country you choose to move to. It's reciprocal

But is it?

I'd like to see a blow by blow account of a direct service here compared to the other EU countries...exact like for like.

I do know when we were in France, our DD got injured, the hospital had no English speakers we had to make do in Pigeon French and there was absolutely NO translations to help us, like here, and NO OFFER of a Translator. We were then chased for the money for the consultation, a nominal amount, after.

Already, from one small experience I know that there ARE translators in our hospitals, there are signs in both languages....and we don't chase people for money when they have used the NHS.

Other countries are good at chasing us, but not the other way round Confused.

I dont even know if Malta is in the EU but my Father was there and bleeding and they demanded to see his insurance before treating him.

I think here they would treat you if you were bleeding?

TucsonGirl · 23/05/2014 18:15

Are doctors, lawyers fees being undercut by immigrants?

Puzzledandpissedoff · 23/05/2014 18:18

More fodder for right wing extremists:

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/453022/Illegal-immigrants-may-be-granted-free-access-to-NHS

Duckierub · 23/05/2014 18:19

Tucson girl

Well obviously it's all about supply and demand but professional service employees are most certainly in competition with global talent.
It may mean they can't get a job at all.
Incidentally, plumbers and electricians often have to re take exams to be qualified here depending upon which country they qualified, just like doctors and lawyers etc.

Backinthering · 23/05/2014 18:19

Bornfree they certainly have translators in the Spanish hospitals in areas popular with tourists.
Non UK-residents are in fact eligible for fees if they need the services of the NHS although you're right in that they won't be asked for money or proof of insurance up front.
Sweden, France and Germany all spend more on social welfare than the UK.

gordyslovesheep · 23/05/2014 18:21

UKIP got 17% of the vote... 4% more than the Lib Dems ...who aren't calling it a victory with 13%

Tories got 29% - Labour 31%

not sure how it means 'most people' want change/voted UKIP/are unhappy with the main 2 parties

Duckierub · 23/05/2014 18:24

bornfree

Spanish hospitals are sucking up the cost of our retirees who emigrated there. And I think you'll find many Spanish doctors speaking English.

TucsonGirl · 23/05/2014 18:30

I'd be interested in seeing figures to see how much the average doctor was paid 20 years ago and how much today, compared to how much the average bricklayer was paid 20 years ago and how much today. My guess is that the doctor is earning far more in real terms but the brickie far less in real terms. The gapp between rich and poor widened due to mass immigration. Minimum wage became the standard for many jobs. Meanwhile the Labour government stuffed doctors mouths with gold and gave them a deal even the unions thought was too good to be true. It's disgusting IMO.

tabulahrasa · 23/05/2014 18:31

The immigration issue isn't the point though...

I can kind of get my head round people voting UKIP for the European election for reasons to do with immigration and the EU as that's the issue people seem to want the government to take notice of.

But as your councillor? What sense does it make to vote about those issues for a party that wants to privatise the NHS, that thinks children with disabilities shouldn't be in mainstream education, that thinks that social housing should be prioritised by who your grandparents are rather than by need - when these are the issues that you need your councillor for, not immigration, not the EU, local services.

DiamondsAndRust · 23/05/2014 18:32

See, that's what I find so difficult about the UKIP issue - as soon as it's raised the mud-flinging starts, and people are so busy hurling expletives at each other that no meaningful debate takes place.

The very idea of voting for UKIP is anathema to me, but I do try to get to the bottom of why many people have become desperate or deluded enough to vote for them. Not all of these people are 'fucking racist cunts' - some of them have genuine concerns that deserve to be heard and engaged with (not pandered to, I hasten to add!). If the mainstream political parties want to put a stop to the UKIP bandwagon, they need to firstly acknowledge where it comes from. There are now too many disparate groups voting for them (ex-Labour; ex-Tory; northern industrial towns; leafy Shires; outer London suburbs) that there is clearly something more than blind, unthinking racism going on.

Of course in absolute terms the UK benefits massively from immigration, but we need to have an honest debate about how, and who exactly is benefitting. There will be winners and losers, and we need to acknowledge this. There is also no denying that rapid population growth of any kind puts a strain on public services (working in schools I see that at first hand). Labour and the Tories need to get much better at putting forward a vision for how best to deal with this. Overstretched public services disproportionately affect the most vulnerable and least educated, some of whom who may end up voting UKIP out of sheer desperation. This is ignorant, yes, but not evil.

What annoys me most is the kneejerk reaction of the middle-class opinion formers in Hampstead and Islington who seek to shut down all debate about UKIP and immigration by describing anyone who votes for them as racist morons/cunts/twats/insert expletive of your choice. Some (perhaps many) of UKIP's voters sadly have racist, or at least xenophobic, motives, but to dismiss them all in such reductive terms smacks to me of intellectual arrogance and class snobbery.

BornFreeButinChains · 23/05/2014 18:32

Spanish hospitals are sucking up the cost of our retirees who emigrated there. And I think you'll find many Spanish doctors speaking English

Thats not a blow by blow account of what each country offers is it?

I mean, if someone wants to put to bed the argument that people come here for our benefits and services, put it all in a clear way, like for like.

As for many docs speaking English, the doctor in Malta could not speak to my Father, the French docs couldn't speak to us, I didn't even know how to get out of the hospital because we went in by ambulance!

Or does the whole of the EU boil down to some Spanish resorts and a few English speaking doctors?

Rainbunny · 23/05/2014 18:33

I haven't been following UK politics closely as I live overseas but I have a genuine question on immigration. I thought the general consensus in the UK was that immigration is not bad in itself and has many positive benefits BUT the unfettered immigration that has occurred since 2004, without effective limits so much that even the government admitting that they undercounted the true level of immigration by millions, put too much of a strain on the UK economy. Would it be fair to say that most people agree with this view? If so, I wonder what the main parties -Tories, Lib Dem and Labour were planning to do about it? it seems to me that this issue is one of main reasons that people voted for UKIP in protest.

I guess what I'm asking is did people feel that the main parties were not going to take action so they felt the only way to make themselves heard on the issue was to vote for UKIP? Very sad if true

I would love some feedback as I'm not up on the current state of things, I also hope that I made myself understood. It seems that whenever someone suggests that there should be a reasonable limit on immigration, someone else will cry racism which is not true. I am an immigrant myself in my current country, a country that has firm limits on immigration numbers which I honestly don't find unreasonable at all.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 23/05/2014 18:36

Very well said, DiamondsAndRust Smile

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