to think it proves lots of people want change

[adsy]

That ukip are making such huge gains in the elections.
If mnetters could temper their hysteria of screaming racism, I think it is a clear indication that the fundamental principals of the party of no toEurope and no to continued mass immigration are very important to a lot of people

Claig is having a bit of a laugh and shouldn't be taken that seriously :)

I still want answers from UKIP supporters though. Since Scotland is causing difficulties, I'll ask again, what happens to rural England after withdrawal from the EU?

If you are English and have a big farm, you might have, ahem, to up your wages and conditions for people to pick your fruit. I'm all in favour of this. You won't be. Ready to pay a bit more?

If you are English and have any farm at all, you are attracting subsidies from the EU to farm your land. Those subsidies are very helpful and pay for things you need. Those will be removed when you leave the EU. Ready to lose your money and your farm?

If you are an English fisherman, you might have to renegotiate your fishing boundaries. In person. Ready for that?

I understand why its happenng Claig. I have been saying for ages that the general public feel unheard and disengaged. I,ve also been saying that we need to automatically stop accusing people who are choosing to vote UKIP out of frustration as racists because it does nothing to get debate going and just causes people (to use a scouse phrase) 'to see their arse' and vote for them out of protest and because they wont be told by those in power.
As I have previously said its a great big middle finger up to what you refer to as the elite.
but when it comes down to it. UKIP dont have the answers either and no one I have spoken to has been able to tell me what UKIPS policies actually are and how withdrawal from the EU will actually effect our economy,trade and day to day life. Thats the debate I want and the answers I want,
Fontanella at least gave me food for thought rather than rambling on about the elite and feathers and gordon bennet,

Jassyradlett, I have never said that UKIP haven't got flaws. I am against fracking. I think Patrick O'Flynn is not very good. I think Roger Helmer was the wrong choice to stand for Newark. But with all their negatives, I think they are the only hope to bring about change, to get a referendum and to remove the spinners and serve the people. I want proportional representation, I want local referenda, I want power for the people.

Farage is not interested in micro-managing all of us, he doesn't want a nanny state, he won't whip his councillors, he said they are big enough and ugly enough to make their own decisions and he doesn't want "a politically correct nothingness". He just wants change and self-determination and exit from the EU and laws made by our own people again and that is what I want to. When and if Farage achieves it, he will retire into the sunset.

meddie, there are no easy answers. It is like that song "there are more questions than answers". But, for me, UKIP are asking the right questions and I think that therefore answers will be found and one of the answers is to get out of the EU and restore our sovereignty and spend our money on our people in our hospitals and care homes.

"elite and feathers and gordon bennet"

They are the problem and if you don't understand the problem, you can't find the solution. This is the people's revolution and after the earthquake, the solution will be found.

he won't whip his councillors, he said they are big enough and ugly enough to make their own decisions

He won't even pull his own deputy into line.

he will retire into the sunset

Before he has to be accountable. And don't kid yourself about the sunset. He'll be on TV on a regular basis, do the after dinner speech circuit and generally continue to line his own pockets.

one of the answers is to get out of the EU and restore our sovereignty and spend our money on our people in our hospitals and care homes

Naive and simplistic.

'Naive and simplistic.'

That is the polite form of what they used to call UKIP - "fruitcakes", but now they all say they "respect" them. Soon they will say they were right.

Claig - but what next? What's the plan for after leaving the EU? That's what no one will answer except on broad platitudes about self-determination. What is UKIP's position on farm subsidies and LFA support, and does it support transitional arrangements? For how long? What is their economic and fiscal policy? How will they keep the lights on? What's their approach to employment law and industrial relations?

This is my problem. As I've said, leaving the EU is a supportable position, but don't if you don't have a plan for what's next. And if the leader of what feels like a one-man show isn't planning to stick around, who'll see it through?

claig loftily says that "answers will be found"

That's as arrogant and dismissive as anything the governing parties have been accused of.

Sorry: the "solution will be found"

That's ok then. Ask people to vote for a revolution but don't respect them enough to give them any facts. Still a good few seem to have fallen for it.

Yes. Not clear on 'by whom' or 'how' or 'could we have some examples, please'.

Such as who's going to staff a these hospitals and care homes. Probably people laid off from other jobs because even more manufacturing moved offshore and our exports became uncompetitive after they'd had tariffs whacked on them.

My own view is that Britain's economy would be even more services-driven than it is now, and even more about the City in particular. How lovely for the rest of the country (though admittedly quite good for stockbrokers).

Aargh! What Jassy said, where are the real practical answers?

This is like debating with anarchists. "Once the revolution happens, the answers will be found.". "How then?" "By the people." "What will they be likely to be?" "The people will find out." "What in the meantime?" "Just shut up, OK? We're busy making the revolution."

It's shorthand for "We have no fucking clue". And neither do UKIP.

UKIP didn't do very well at all.
Labour did, but for some reason the media are reporting the opposite.
Weird.

There are an estimated 3.5 million jobs in Britain which are linked, one way or another, to the UK’s trade with the rest of Europe.

Oh well, Jassy that's your care home staff sorted.

This is like debating with anarchists. "Once the revolution happens, the answers will be found.". "How then?" "By the people." "What will they be likely to be?" "The people will find out." "What in the meantime?" "Just shut up, OK? We're busy making the revolution"

And claig claims they're in touch.

Yeah, not a problem.

Oh, hang on. Who's going to pay them?

This is the nearest to fair coverage I've found, but the bottom line is that Labour gained 300 seats to UKIPs 150.

Do you really have so little faith in the potential of this country and its people?

Do you really think that we need Gordon Bennett to "save the planet" and "save the world" and that without him and what he called "his plans" we would all be sunk?

Jux said it on another thread. We all know that the civil service runs the country and they know what they are doing. But the direction is often given by the puppets who listen to the lobbyists. That is the problem with our democracy. That the puppets listen to the lobbyists, to their financial backers and that their interests are often opposed to the people's interests.

The solution is proportional representation and UKIP's masterstroke of local referenda on issues that have more than 5% support, because then it will be the people who influence and shape policy and not the lobbyists.

The solution is remove the spinners and the puppets and replace them with ordinary decent people who already have all the bath plugs they are ever likely to need, and then curtail the power of the lobbyists by giving power to local people in referenda.

Now obviously the Bullingdon Club will be driven wild by this because it cuts them out of the loop and they will ask all their chums in the media, from Eton or Oxford or wherever, to launch a campaign against the people in a failed attempt to stop referenda.

But the greens want proportional, the LibDems want proportional and in the end I believe that decent people like Lord Glasman will want proportional too and referenda too because as Lord Glasman rightly said

"UKIP has done us all a service in one key respect: it has forced the elites to confront the flaws in our democracy"

and the overbearing unaccountable power of the elite and its lobbyist, backers and paymasters is the problem.

Finally, the people's revolution will lead to a more rpresentative, accountable, open democracy and that will lead to the people selecting decent candidates like Diane James, Suzanne Evans, Lisa Duffy (I could continue listing UKIP candidates but the list would take up the entire thread) and they will make the right decisions, set the right targets and our very capable, decent civil service will carry put the wishes of the people.

Can we fix it? Yes we can

The latest results I've seen show Labour up 338 seats with an increased national share of the vote from last year, UKIP up 161, Conservatives down 231, Lib Dems buggered.

So yes, it's curious that this is bring played as 'bad for Labour' and as if UKIP were to form the next government. They had a great and breakthrough day, but apart from a few seats with special circumstances, they didn't do a great deal to the Labour vote - UKIP and Labour split the spoils of the others doing badly.

this is an interesting take.

Do you really think that we need Gordon Bennett to "save the planet" and "save the world" and that without him and what he called "his plans" we would all be sunk?

Here we go again. Is simple courtesy beyond you claig?

"Who's going to pay them?" Interesting question Jassy

our very capable, decent civil service will carry put the wishes of the people

Even more deluded than I thought you were.

as if UKIP were to form the next government

I doubt they'll have a handful of seats if that.

I think we need people who can remember the name of the last Prime Minister, but that's just me.

So it will be left to the civil service? The civil service implements the policies of the government of the day. How well they do that depends on the quality of the policy and the competence of the civil servants. But in the absence of policy apart from a seismic shift in our economic and trade base... What? What are the policies these civil servants will be implementing?

So far we have:

Leave Europe
Extend points-based immigration to EU nationals
Electoral reform (with a referendum?)
Local referenda (how local?) on popular proposals.

What else? What plugs the gap if 5% of people don't care? What about issues that transcend the local?

Leaving it to the civil service to plug the gaps would put it in the same position as the European Commission - unelected officials putting forward policy proposals to be voted on by a Parliament (and in the case of the EU the Council of Ministers).

It would be amazing if I was intent on Gordon Brown to save the world and save the planet. I have only ever voted Labour once and that was when I was 18 and he was pretty far away from being PM. :D

Most opposition to UKIP doesn't come from being a big mad Labour obsessive. It comes from the fact they have no workable policies, no plan for what will happen outside the EU, and no practical plan for any action whatsoever. Oh yeah, and haven't actually managed to refrain from racism and misogyny at any point.