to think it proves lots of people want change

[adsy]

That ukip are making such huge gains in the elections.
If mnetters could temper their hysteria of screaming racism, I think it is a clear indication that the fundamental principals of the party of no toEurope and no to continued mass immigration are very important to a lot of people

FFS

Why don't you look at who staffs the NHS? It's not about fucking plumbers

Many immigrants work in skilled occupations including as A&E doctors. Umiversities recruit many skilled teachers and researchers from overseas. And what about casual agricultural labour? People have been coming over here to help harvest for centuries

Yes there needs to be a conversation about immigration but I would like to see some facts not just whinging little Englanders from the south east of England

Would the middle classes be so happy about immigration if it was lawyers, accoutants, doctors, architects whose fees were being undercut by immigrants rather than builders, plumbers, electricians etc? I think the recent throwing the toys out of the pram by lawyers over legal aid cuts (they are still VERY well paid compared to working-class people) shows that. The middle-class left is the most hypocritical bunch of people imaginable. They practice self-interest but come up with a bunch of rhetoric to justify it "vibrancy" etc.

I don't know where to start with this thread. The racism some people are showing is so staggeringly overwhelming.

We are all people, all equal, all of us need food, education, healthcare. It doesn't matter where you come from, needs are the same and no one group deserves it more than others. That should be the essence of being human.

I'm not entirely sure what defines 'middle class', but I think I'm probably it.. Large house in Surrey, SAHM but with a degree, 2 children, DH on a very good salary?

I'd rather pay my plumber more and give a British person that job. (I know this thread is about much more but I just caught that little bit of nonsense.)

HTH.

Oh bollocks Tucsongirl.

People who come to this country to work are concentrating on paying the mortgage and getting their children a good education. Fuck off with thus 'vibrancy' shit.

Complaining that someone can do a plumbing job cheaper than you is ridiculous. No one owes you a living.

No-one owes you a living either BogQueen. The government is supposed to represent the interests of people in the country already, not people outside the country who want to come here to improve their lives. Working-class people have been betrayed by all 3 main parties, hence the rise of UKIP.

Eh, tuscon? most of the doctors, accountants and lawyers I've ever met were second or third generation immigrants.

'of course it does. Your rent is at least partially a function of maintenance costs. Maintenance costs are pushed onto renters.'

Not in my individual situation it doesnt, but thats irrelevant to be honest, it could do with other people.

'But when my daughter is only white child in a class of 30 and we couldn't get play dates because her classmates families didn't want to mix with me, hey that's just vibrancy in action.'

This is something that bothers me immensely as I will be becoming a mother to a girl in August. I couldn't care less if people think it is racist or whatever, I am concerned about my child going to school where the vast majority of other children are from cultural backgrounds that lack respect for women and have questionable moral and cultural practices. And the fact my child could be being treated like a leper in their own country because the school is over ran with non british children and their parents are intolerant and don't want their children to mix with children from a western background.

I know - I have been made redundant twice!

It proves that there's a lot of gullible people who've either voted for them without a clue about their policies because it's a protest vote and everyone else is doing it, or because they're genuinely racist, homophobic, misogynistic, bigoted wankers.

But the immigrants undercutting the wages of working-class people are first generation immigrants, there's the difference. You know for a fact that there's no way politicians would shaft their own peer group by allowing immigrants to come over here with qualifications gained in foreign countries and practice law, accountancy, medicine etc etc. And being able to charge whatever they wanted.

Gordon Brown admitted that he had engineered mass immigration in order to prevent wage inflation. Whose wages do you think were being held down? The gap between rich and poor soared during Labour's reign of terror, do you not think the effects of mass immigration had a teeny tiny bit to do with that? Or was it just all about "vibrancy" and "rubbing the right's noses in diversity"?

We are allowing ghettos by default and not having any proper conversation about it. Last time I made this point on another thread I was called racist

No doubt you were, Spero. I only wish that those who parrot "racist" at every opportunity - often simply to close down a discussion they don't like - would understand that they're actually causing people to vote for far right parties

I'm not suggesting that voting this way is a good idea, simply that this is what happens when people feel their views are being ignored. As I've said so often, not everybody with concerns about immigration is a swivel-eyed racist and trying to pretend they are helps nobody

"It benefits British builders by getting better workers. And unless gardeners, electricians etc live in plumbless houses, it benefits them as well.

The only people it doesn't benefit through direct competition is other plumbers. So what? If you think plumbers are hard up I certainly don't see it. Bring them in I say. Plumbers get paid well or certainly the ones that come to my house do. Anyone who owns a house knows how much building work in general costs, and specifically how much plumbing costs. So, why should the interests of British plumbers outweigh everyone else's?"

You appear to be living in a bubble.

The plumbers that come to my house are employed, and what you pay is not what they receive. If they are self-employed than work is irregular and unpredictable.

I am not sure what you mean by British builders getting better workers. British builders, on the whole, are individuals trying to get the best wage for their skill. So it doesn't benefit them to get more immigrants in to reduce the value of that. How could it?

And if you are a gardener, electrician, whatever, then the £50 you might spend on plumbing in 10 years hardly compensates for the 30% you've had knocked off your wages by immigrants who are of course not merely plumbers, but many different trades, driving down wages in all.

"And part of overall housing costs are maintenance costs. if those go up, so does the cost of housing. Isn't housing one of the main issues we have to deal with here?"

Nope.

The problem is that land is expensive. Houses aren't expensive. It's the land.

A tiny plot of land in Romford with no house on it?

That will be £225,000 please www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-43595725.html

One of the main reasons that land is expensive is because we have so many immigrants and no more land available for building on. So if you admit 100,000 skilled labourers, that might reduce the cost of building your house by £5000, but it adds £50,000 onto the cost of the plot. Not a great idea is it?

'The government is supposed to represent the interests of people in the country already, not people outside the country who want to come here to improve their lives.'

This exactly, it seems these days everyone in the world is more important than the genuine British working class. It is absolutely disgusting the way the countries own people are being treated, no point in people throwing their toys out the pram when this amounts to mass votes for a rather fringe party.

'no I haven't. But I think you best rely on official statistics rather than a programme.'

A post including the statistics has been kindly posted by someone called Agapanthers, showing that yes infact, a large amount of social housing in proportion to the population of such people in London is going to people of foreign descent.

Some of the remarks made on here (with regard to who people vote for) are really offensive and alarmingly vitriolic.

This spitting bile just shows the worst side of the person saying it, not the intended victim.

'We are all people, all equal, all of us need food, education, healthcare. It doesn't matter where you come from, needs are the same and no one group deserves it more than others. That should be the essence of being human.'

No ones saying otherwise. Am I able to just get up and move to another country and get all of those things for free? Will I get free education, healthcare, housing and food if I swan off to even another European country? No. So why should people be happy about foreigners being able to do that here?

Tuscongirl do you think that people with qualifications in law, medicine, accountancy etc aren't allowed to move to the UK? Because that's nonsense. Who do you think staffs the NHS?
I'm an immigrant with an IT background. A big percentage of my London-based finance colleagues are immigrants.
The skills are, I would imagine, a very welcome contribution.

Sorry, but I long since learnt that price shouldn't be a deciding factor about anything as its a false economy. I would rather pay more for a quality product. I'm more likely to pick a builder/utility specialist on the basis of word of mouth reputation than anything else. I don't think I would ever go on price alone when it came to tradesman.

I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking this.

I do actively try and frequently buy British where I can - I'm definitely not adverse to do this, as its an economically sound principle. But buying British is about trying to maximise money circularising within the UK. That means in the pockets of anyone who is resident here, not what passport they happen to hold.

So whilst there are people harping on about 'cheap' labour and immigrants, I'll bet they don't think twice about where their pound spent at Tescos is going and what it means in terms of the economy and jobs.

Its simply easier to blame 'them coming over here' and to blame the evil middle classes.

22honey you'd be eligible for whatever social welfare is available in whatever EU country you choose to move to. It's reciprocal.
I can also assure you that immigrants are not entitled to any benefits here until they have permanent leave to remain, excluding asylum seekers who get an absolute pittance.

Why is land suitable for building on just so expensive?

Well who owns a large percentage of it?

Clue: 'every little helps' and 'why pay more'.

30 years ago the same arguments were being made against immigration in these areas - the difference is that the. The arguments were made by the BNP. Thus time they are made by UKIP. The arguments are eerily similar

No! The difference is back then they probably were scared of Johnny Foreigner...and I imagine there was a lot of true racism.

The BIG MASSIVE DIFFERENCE is people are not scared of Johnny Foreinger they are scared OF the volume of people and the speed of which they have come here.

I don't see what people cant understand about that? I mean the NHS was already under enormous strain short of MW BEFORE so what does Labour do? Flood it with millions more users?

I love the back tracking of Labour that we need hard working immigrants, about what 4 million of them as though it was some sort of special plan drawn up to help the country!

It wasn't, it was a massive cock up.

Labour massively underestimated the numbers that would want to come here.

They said - 15 thousand a year MIGHT come. There was no plan to fill jobs us brits wouldn't do!

Labour and only Labour has sown the seeds for all of this rubbish

Mostly you would get the same rights and benefits as the other residents in the country 22honey, that's part of being in the EU In fact you could even get free higher education.

"Tuscongirl do you think that people with qualifications in law, medicine, accountancy etc aren't allowed to move to the UK? Because that's nonsense. Who do you think staffs the NHS? "

I didn't say they can't move to the UK. But you can't simply come to the UK and practice those professions here with only qualifications earnt overseas. As you can with many or most working class trades (or if not, with a very easily got conversion course).

Why doesn't the government stand up for tradespeople as it does the "professions"? Look at how much they increased NHS doctors salaries by. The doctors couldn't believe their luck.