to think it proves lots of people want change

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That ukip are making such huge gains in the elections.
If mnetters could temper their hysteria of screaming racism, I think it is a clear indication that the fundamental principals of the party of no toEurope and no to continued mass immigration are very important to a lot of people

What are the parties so afraid of? Well, handing over the decision for this to people whose knowledge of economics extends to the VAT rate on fags, basically. It's so tiresome that you think that Europe is to blame for unemployment and lack of social mobility, those things which keep many people in less than satisfactory living conditions. Really, we have to uncouple our social governance from market values: I don't want to live in a world where we a freer to exploit workers because they've lost the protection of European politics; liberalising the domestic working market will not do anything to make ordinary people anything except more exploitable, less protected legally and less protected by the state against the force of capitalism. Capitalism is structurally unequal and encourages inequality - this is an economic fact because capital has always and will outstrip working in terms of the accruement of wealth - and the only thing protecting most people from this are the protections of the state including health, social care, education and the protection of rights. Poor people from other countries are not your problem; rich people are.

The rhetoric is already changing with regards to UKIP and their voting public.

www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-27554556

"George Osborne told the BBC the Conservatives had to listen to the "anger and anxiety" of those who voted for UKIP in Thursday's local elections."

All of a sudden the establishment decides to involve UKIPs leader by offering him respect.

• Give the people a referendum and let us decide if we want to carry on down the road to a federalist Europe. That's what democracy is

Its already been described in great patronising detail on these boards, that from a Labour/Liberal intellegensia point of view, the little people of this country are not educated enough ( whose fault is that?) nor mentally equipped with the faculties ( fucking insulting) to vote properly on such a big issue and it should be left to their elected leaders to decide for them.

Oh and of course, they don't vote for UKIP for any other reason than The Daily Mail tells them too.

Even though, the DM has been publishing anti Farage stories recently....

This attitude by various posters on here to the flesh and blood of this country....sums up the attitude of the big parties, then they wonder why people vote UKIP.

Where has any poster said that people weren't educated enough to vote?

Not on this thread but on others re UKIP and referendum, it was described in great painstaking detail, I imagine the author had a pained expression like Cleggs, that we all just dont understand, we dont get it!

Oh and of course, they don't vote for UKIP for any other reason than The Daily Mail tells them too.

Are they completely unaware that the Daily Mail has been running a smear campaign of epic proportions against Farage and UKIP for weeks in the run up to the European and local elections, and has been doing everything they can to persuade people not to vote UKIP and split the centre/right vote that the Conservatives so desperately need to keep Labour out?

They've thrown everything at Farage and UKIP they could lay their grubby little hands on, every tidbit, every loony fringe member, every tweet, every word, every disgruntled ex member - you name it they've thrown it.

Only it didn't work and it is only now, post-election when their blatant campaign has failed, that you are starting to see the emergence of grudgingly favourable editorials in the Mail and an effort at 'understanding' why people would not be swayed by scare-mongering, insults and smear, but voted UKIP regardless.

Are there people here who seriously believe the Mail was pro-UKIP and urging its readers to vote UKIP?!

Are there people here who seriously believe the Mail was pro-UKIP and urging its readers to vote UKIP?

Some posters who complain about the DM and what it prints wont visit the DM website to see what offends them so much, so it's no surprise they didn't see the smear campaign run by the paper.

Are they completely unaware that the Daily Mail has been running a smear campaign of epic proportions against Farage and UKIP for weeks in the run up to the European and local elections

Yes because its the fashionable thing to say on here, by the truly intelligent high minded and worthy socialist contingent.

Are there people here who seriously believe the Mail was pro-UKIP and urging its readers to vote UKIP?

Not readers, Zombies...mindless brainless Zombies who do everything the Mail tells them too, until a Kind Relative comes in to stage an intervention, to gently, talk them out of it and explain, in ever so simple language the facts

Some posters who complain about the DM and what it prints wont visit the DM website to see what offends them so much

Ummm disagree, its the most linked to Paper on MN, with a smattering of Guardian.

I think they see it but ignore it and wave it away, beneath contempt....because it doesnt fit in with their entrenched views...that cant be changed because they are so intellegent.

otherwise I'm afraid UKIP support will keep on growing and you can wring your hands, insult, moan, be ashamed, scream 'racist' all you like and it won't make the blindest bit of difference.

THIS ^^

If this is not a revolution, it will certainly lead to lots of changes

It would be nice to think so, but don't forget that all most politicians care about is keeping their snouts in the trough

It's not likely that UKIP would win a general election, so once one of the other parties gets back in they'll probably just heave a sigh of relief and revert to type

As for Cameron claiming "we're Conservtive and we don't do deals" ... what planet is this fool on??? They DID a deal or they wouldn't be there at all right now

What are the parties so afraid of? Well, handing over the decision for this to people whose 'knowledge of economics extends to the VAT rate on fags, basically. It's so tiresome that you think that Europe is to blame for unemployment and lack of social mobility, those things which keep many people in less than satisfactory living conditions. Really, we have to uncouple our social governance from market values: I don't want to live in a world where we a freer to exploit workers because they've lost the protection of European politics; liberalising the domestic working market will not do anything to make ordinary people anything except more exploitable, less protected legally and less protected by the state against the force of capitalism. Capitalism is structurally unequal and encourages inequality - this is an economic fact because capital has always and will outstrip working in terms of the accruement of wealth - and the only thing protecting most people from this are the protections of the state including health, social care, education and the protection of rights. Poor people from other countries are not your problem; rich people are.

How very liberal (not to mention condescending, superior and dismissive) of you to so scathingly dismiss the electorate of this country 'as people whose knowledge of economics extends to the VAT rate on fags, basically'.

Yes of course. These 'people' shouldn't be allowed to make decisions about anything. We should just allow the political class - The Cleggs of this world - to make our decisions for us.

And your assumption as to why I detest the 'EU' is so far off the mark, it perfectly illustrates the sheer arrogance of those who profess to know best, even to the extent you feel qualified to tell me "It's so tiresome that you think that Europe is to blame for unemployment and lack of social mobility, those things which keep many people in less than satisfactory living conditions..."

I don't blame 'Europe' for anything. I don't think 'Europe is to blame for unemployment and lack of social mobility' and how and why you think you know what I think in relation to either of these subjects (neither of which I have mentioned) is nothing short of astounding.

I despise the EU - the organisation - the institution - the costly, bureacratic monolith itself because it is undemocratic, federalist, its stated aim is to erode the nation state; it is corrupt, yes corrupt (any organisation whose own auditors are unable to ratify its accounts for 18 years because of 'anomalies' is corrupt unless you can think of a better word for it. If that was a bank or a business the outcry would be deafening but with the EU, too many seem willing to turn a blind eye).

It is an out of control gravy train that at the very least need huge reform from top to bottom. It needs to become open, transparent, more democratic. It is because of the undemocratic nature of the institution in its present form that is impossible to do anything about it whist being a member, despite assurances from successive domestic governments that this can be achieved.

it can't be achieved. That has been proven over more than four decades and successive treaties. The EU is on a Federalist course and nothing can stop it. We either go with it, or we leave, and I for one want to be given the choice.

It would seem that there are many thousands like me and we've shown it at the ballot box. That's democracy for you. Something you don't seem awfully keen on. Well you do, but only if a liberal intelligentsia are allowed to vote, while the rest of us plebs stick to working out the VAT on fags.

Can't face reading 38 pages but, yes, I agree with the OP.

Fact is there are many people out there who are worried about immigration. Whatever others may make of that, those fears are very real to those people and shouldn't be belittled.

Yes, racism comes into play but not everyone who voted UKIP is an out and out racist. Misguided maybe but clearly feeling that they're not being listened to.

Is Darjeeling partly made up of things not recognisable as tea, then? The Daily Mail has a fairly woeful record on the accuracy of its reporting and the 'facts' it uses. It's fairly well documented in the archives of the PCC and my scientists, academics, and a wide range of Ordinary People who have complained that the Mail put words they never said in their mouths.

However, I've no idea where James Chapman went to school.

For fuck's sake, this is depressing.

If you're so educated and fantaaaastic and know so much about economics, why are you voting for a protest-vote party with precisely two rather confused and unworkable policies? I posted elsewhere asking how UKIP would deal with a Scotland who voted no and still relied heavily (being a rural part of the nation) on EU subsidies and EU brokering of fishery rights. I got a resounding silence from all the UKIP fans. It's, er, kind of an important question. It's important for parts of England, too.

I love the thought of being "part of the liberal intelligencia". Or "the political class". Yes, totally. I'm awash in EU money and Nick Clegg calls me up every day to discuss what I think is best for the nation. lol Play the ball, not the man, and answer a few fucking questions for a change.

Claig - you surely don't need to ask what newspaper my dad reads?

He reads a lot, but amongst them is of course the Mail.

I don't think this makes him a 'fucking thick count' but I do doubt his intelligent ability to assess what he reads there and we have had many a lovely debate on the subject.

I think he is an intelligent man but sometimes scared and confused by a world that has moved on very quickly from when he was young and he lets his prejudice and fear over rule his brain.

Because that is what the Mail is - not the 'common sense view' but pandering to fear and prejudice.

I posted elsewhere asking how UKIP would deal with a Scotland who voted no and still relied heavily (being a rural part of the nation) on EU subsidies and EU brokering of fishery rights.

Scotland can be as independent as it likes if it votes 'no' - but independence means just that. Scotland can't have independence and STILL rely heavily on EU subsidies we UK left Europe......they would have to apply to the EU themselves. And that is how it should be.

Fontanella - so they Mail has treated Farage like they treat almost every other politician, then? It wasn't a campaign of epic proportions, it's the Mail's modus operandi. The Mail is good at this stuff, but most people don't notice the tactics until they're focused on something that they themselves value, rather than what they dislike.

My own view is that too many people in this country get their news from one or maybe two sources, which gives them a partial view of what is actually happening - no matter what that outlet is. If I only read the Guardian or the Independent, I'd have a very different view of the world than if I solely read the Telegraph or the Sun. I choose to read widely and refer to original sources wherever possible if it's an issue that exercises me.

I don't think claiming to read only one 'special' newspaper marks anyone out as particularly astute or engaged, to be honest.

Back from Sainsburys. Blimey. It was amazing. people were wearing UKIP rosettes, dogs were wearing UKIP jumpers, kids were carrying the UKIP fox and the champagne was selling out so fast, Sainsburys didn't know what was going. A staff member asked a woman draped from head to toe in purple and yellow what this was all about? And in disebelieving tones, a "fruitcake" wearing a UKIP rosette said "haven't you heard about the earthquake tonight?"

And this is a Tory heartland, but it has swung to UKIP.

Here is a brilliant article by Lord Glasman the Labour strategist who came up with the concept of Blue Labour. It is a very good article and it is in the Mail on Sunday. There is also some great stuff in the Mail on Sunday by Rochdale Labour MP, Simon Danczuk.

"Tonight's European election results will leave no doubt as to the temper of the people of England.

Nigel Farage has benefited from a huge surge in support from the angry and disaffected, which has shaken the underpinnings of the three-party system.

This is difficult for me to accept.

However, UKIP has done us all a service in one key respect: it has forced the elites to confront the flaws in our democracy .

The EU has expanded and grown and people need to be given a choice.

...

We are a great self-governing nation and a beacon to the world.

...

And, as a staunch Labour supporter, I would include my party as one of those things to cherish.

But – and it pains me to say this – I have come to the conclusion that Labour is in danger of losing England. Let me explain.

...

But – and it is a big but – the cohesive world which the movement helped to create has now fallen apart.

People are isolated and lonely, and feel both dispossessed of their inheritance and abandoned by their rulers.

It is no surprise, therefore, that so many core Labour voters – people who work and are members of a real village, not the global one, who love their country and their family – feel abandoned and neglected by the party that was established by their forebears.

That is why it is not just the Conservatives who are bleeding support to UKIP.

The votes for Mr Farage, both in the council elections and the European elections, should serve as a sombre reminder to my party’s leadership that the people of England have not lost their desire to govern themselves – and still feel the basic urge to turn their individual fate into a shared destiny through our historic democracy.

UKIP has benefited because people feel powerless .

The dispossession they feel is not an individual complaint, but a shared grievance.

I believe that this Government is incapable of responding. The Conservative party is nowhere near conservative enough . It is a liberal party that serves the interests of those who already have much.

Neither the Conservative nor Liberal parties are held in the hearts of people as the local election results show. They lost seats by the hundreds

...

Immigration and Europe, which are closely connected, have ruptured Labour’s relationship with its own supporters .

We need to heal that rift.

People feel powerless because we do not control our borders, we cannot shape our destiny and we have lost our sense of political community.

...

Unless we’re straight with ourselves, our people and our language, then in the words of Bachman Turner Overdrive – You Ain’t Seen Nothin' Yet .

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2638478/Labour-losing-England-In-hugely-significant-intervention-Labour-peer-Ed-Milibands-closest-mentor-issues-grim-verdict-partys-election-meltdown.html

It is a brilliant article, but I don't think Labour are up to fixing it because there is one key thing that Lord Glasman has not spelt out. Yes, he is right that we feel powerless and ignored by our elites, but the truth is that we all know that our elites are powerless too - that sadly they are just puppets of globalisation and the EU. They can't say anything about Ukraine or global warming or the EU, because they are just puppets and all the people across Europe know it, and that is why tonight's results will be an earthquake because people will vote for populists not puppets and that will shake the foundations of the EU.

What makes Labour and Conservative elites unable to break free from their shackles, but the elites running UKIP able to? It's an argument that doesn't make sense.

StarGazeyPond - er, if Scotland votes no, it will still be part of the UK. Therefore, Westminster will need to deal with it as part of the UK.

No subsidies will impoverish huge parts of Scotland. Removing yourselves from Europe means you will suddenly have to fund all the rural parts of the UK who claim from EU funding. It will also mean you need to sort out fishing boundaries sharpish, as no one else is going to do it for you. Saying "Oh God, who cares about the Jocks" is first of all not a vote winner and secondly will cause hassle in rural England as well.

Fontella, thank you, you are right about how horribly smug that sounded. I am dismissive of UKIP supporters and that is a mistake and an impatience on my part and why I'm not a politician. I honestly think that most people have no earthly clue about how the EU functions as an economic zone and I think their objection to it is ideological and not factual. I don't think it is a coincidence that every party in actual charge of the treasury has no interest in leaving the Union. While Labour and Liberals might have other reasons why they'd stay in a costly relationship if they didin't perceive it as having an economic benefit, I'm fairly certain that the Tories would cut it off in a heartbeat if they believed and could make the case that the net cost of staying is bigger than the net cost of leaving.

I do think that most people want to opt out of the EU because they regard it as bar to their economic and social well being. I may be wrong in this. I do think most people voting UKIP believe that immigration is the cause of their social problems but I think this is a convenient way of distracting from the fact that we live in state of massive economic and social inequity and I perceive the EU as an attempt to work against that. It is deliberately framed in this country as the reason that people can't get jobs (immigration) or set up businesses (regulation). But the ways that the EU impacts on those individual issues does not outweigh that we are living with vastly inequitable economic relations and those are our problem. Solving immigration or regulation along the lines of UKIPs suggestions will not solve our economic crisis or the overall structural inequities that cause a lot of political disaffection with the current political classes.

I am massively unhappy with the form of democracy that we have, I think it functions by mob rule and not consensus. However, I've got no solutions to that (yet, ha ha). You're right to say that we can't just deny votes to people who don't agree with us, which is the subtext of my dismissive fags and vat statement, that was a wrong headed argument and anti democratic. But I'm not sure that our democracy is properly democratic in any case, because it fails to account for non-voters or disengagement; and just as I don't have a say over the governance or budget of an actual hospital but might have a say over its operating principles, I think there is a degree to which some decisions should not be subject to democratic governance. I may be wrong, however, in thinking that EU membership is one of those decisions. But it is mad to think that such a decision could be taken by people who've no earthly idea about what they are voting for - and that includes people voting for as well as against it.

'What makes Labour and Conservative elites unable to break free from their shackles, but the elites running UKIP able to? It's an argument that doesn't make sense.'

It doesn't make sense to Gordon Bennett. But if you understood what was happening, you would get it. UKIP are not the elite. They are the anti-establishment, outsider party attacked even by the Sun and its Etonians who pretend to be a people's paper and who pretend that they are anti EU and who pretended that they were anti Gordon Bennett and Tony Blair and yet backed them when Tony Blair took the country to war.

The Mail never backed that lot, but it is also against UKIP, because it is also establishment and pro Tory. But its readers aren't.

The people voted UKIP because Farage says what he thinks, he makes gaffes, he has the courage to make mistakes and admit he got things wrong in not vetting the idiots enough. But the people forgive him because they trust him because they feel his heart is in the right place (unlike all the rest). Farage said "the EU has blood on its hands" and the elites looked over their shoulders at Brussels in fear.

Farage has broken free, he has told the truth and that is why the people back him. The people want to break free from puppets, free from lies, free from spin and free from Europe and they think that with UKIP they stand some chance of breaking free.

What makes Labour and Conservative elites unable to break free from their shackles, but the elites running UKIP able to? It's an argument that doesn't make sense.

But from everything I hear Scotland will vote 'yes' - so it doesn't matter does it.

And if they vote 'no' then they will take what comes.

Relying on EU subsidies is not good for anyone.