to think it proves lots of people want change

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That ukip are making such huge gains in the elections.
If mnetters could temper their hysteria of screaming racism, I think it is a clear indication that the fundamental principals of the party of no toEurope and no to continued mass immigration are very important to a lot of people

Well I think there's a reason that people vote for UKIP:

Either:

1. They're so pissed off about being in the EU that they've forgone all their previous moral and ethical codes about racism / sexism / general human decency because they would rather live in a British version of the Third Reich than be a member of the EU
2. They actually are racist / sexist / homophobic - and going back to times where the only rights were for white hetero men is a good thing for them and the EU thing is just an added bonus
3. They've heard sensationalist stuff about UKIP and thought "Haha, this will stick it to the man" without bothering to research UKIP's (lack of coherent) policies and have unintentionally actually voted FOR the man

I'm hopeful that most of the voters are in category 3 - people who are politically naive and believe what the Daily Mail tells them and haven't actually bothered researching who they vote for (because obvs that would take effort, and it's not like voting is an important thing...)

I'd also say that there wouldn't have been such a swing if more moderates had actually got off their arses and bothered to vote for someone other than UKIP - so the blame for their surge partially lies at their door as well.

the shrill "UKIP are racist" is entirely counter productive. Obviously, they have huge support, and most of those people are clearly not racists or don't consider themselves to be. So, it gives UKIP voters as easy out. they don't have to look deeper because they believe your initial (and sometimes only) criticism is just wrong. UKIP has done an excellent job of tapping into immigrant scapegoating, while not being openly racist. I think that's all due to Farage's political skill.

UKIP should obviously be taken seriously - and then have their policies heavily criticised. their policies aren't crazy, but they are really bad. A good look will show this. Call them on it.

I think the problem is most of them didn't
Extremist parties always do well out of voter apathy.

That was in response to Fluffy40.

Presumably theyll win many euro seats and will use that platform plus the resources it will give them, to win seats in your parliament next election. Its actually quite an intelligently planned development of a political party.

Until the two other main parties find some way of addressing issues such as immigration etc then they'll continue to grow.

And re the idea that they'll be hopelessly incompetent in councils .... id imagine theres every chance theyll be as good or bad as everyone else.

Until the two other main parties find some way of addressing issues such as immigration etc then they'll continue to grow.

This just about sums up everything.

Well they are not going to get change with Miliband that's for sure, just saw another appalling interview and his head is still firmly stuck in the sand, he is now saying its decades of un rest with main parties that has led to rise of UKIP!

Its so simple, curb immigration back to normal numbers. Thats all they have to do but they utterly refuse.

It's been interesting to watch how the two major parties have left UKIP to it really. Seems as if Labour are quite happy to let UKIP take votes off the Tories and The Tories could well use this as an excuse to move further right on immigration and Europe.

UKIP should obviously be taken seriously - and then have their policies heavily criticised. their policies aren't crazy, but they are really bad. A good look will show this. Call them on it

People feel so strongly about immigration they do not seem to care about the other policies.

This is how strongly people feel about it.

UKIP are simply the protest party de'jour.

I'm hopeful that most of the voters are in category 3 - people who are politically naive and believe what the Daily Mail tells them and haven't actually bothered researching who they vote for (because obvs that would take effort, and it's not like voting is an important thing...)

Well the daily mail has actually been printing some very anti UKIP stories recently, so maybe this shaved off a few voters back to labour etc.

I am not a ukip supporter at all but you really can't win an argument by calling people thick. Think more about what you are typing and what it implies and what connotations that word has.

Otherwise I do agree with a lot of your sentiment oxfordbags.

The only people who canvassed here and called at the door were ukip too. I still wouldn't have voted for them :o but some voters like to know who they are voting for

people who are politically naive and believe what the Daily Mail tells them

Well, that doesn't wash as the DM has spent the last week slating UKIP !!

I don't think it proves people want change, more that they wanted to stick their fingers up at the other parties without thinking their actions through properly and without reading all of the available information about the vile views of UKIP members.

"Essex man is going to be expecting the sun to shine all summer, the local chippy to be staffed by rosie cheeked maidens (but still be open till 1am), to get council houses for all of his offspring and for them to suddenly have well paid proper jobs.

Now UKIP have so many gains in his home county.

But they are going to do fuck all and then blame it on BBC bias and leftie propaganda, misrepresentation of their views and the odd swivel eyed loon who snuck in under their radar.

You might win seats by holding up a pint and smoking a fag whilst talking about the Good Old Days but you won't get much else done."

What an unpleasant, classist stereotype.

I'm finding it very hard to take complaints about racism seriously from people who then go along to sling abuse at entire classes of people.

It is quite oppressive to be honest, the chorus of people that will come on slander anyone who is insufficiently right-on. It doesn't happen the other way, for some reason. People will come on and say that they support UKIP because of x, y, and z, but they don't seem to be spend their time on negative attacks of supporters of other parties.

A few things:

I'm really shocked and saddened that so many people have chosen to vote for a party with such vile policies. To the best of my understanding Ukip has no policies yet other than getting out of Europe, and in fact has studiously avoided making statements about policies. Most of the things bandied about as 'Ukip policy' are in fact off the cuff announcements made by Ukip candidates, many of which have been denied or countered by Ukip following utterance. While I don't condone some of the utterances themselves it's ignorant at best (if not thoroughly disingenuous) to pretend they represent official party policy.

The whole 'Ukip are closet fascists' thing. In point of fact Ukip's founding stance is a classic liberal/libertarian one. This in fact could not be further from a fascist stance, which is fundamentally collectivist/corporatist, dirigiste and deeply authoritarian. I think you could make a reasonable case that in terms of its philosophy, structures and certainly the mindset of its mandarins the EU is in many ways closer to being a fascist state than any proposal Farage could come up with. The only way you can argue the contrary is if you focus solely on the race/culture debate (which IMO is an unfortunate and very counterproductive turn for the whole In/Out discussion) and ignore the founding political philosophies behind Ukip and the EU respectively.

Thirdly, the 'economic benefits of the EU' are nowhere near as cut and dried as some like to claim. Having read extensively on the subject my conclusion is that you can argue the case both ways. However the democratic argument against leaving the EU is unanswerable: if we don't, we are sleepwalking into the death of democracy as we know it.

I think people vote Ukip for a number of reasons. Some hate forriners; obviously we should condemn this. Some are fed up with the increasingly remote political elite and the contempt many ordinary voters and their views provoke in the political elites. Some have carefully thought-out and logically argued objections to the EU, at least on its currently-planned path towards European superstate, and are simply trying to convey a message. My concern with Ukip is that the degeneration of the debate into one about xenophobia toxifies these otherwise quite sensible (and IMO really important discussions) and makes it difficult to argue the Eurosceptic case without being branded a 'closet racist'.

"UKIP should obviously be taken seriously - and then have their policies heavily criticised. their policies aren't crazy, but they are really bad. A good look will show this. Call them on it."

Really? As I understand it, a lot of their policies that are being attacked were in their 2010 manifesto, which Nigel Farage said he didn't even read, and has repudiated.

You can check their website

www.ukip.org/issues

and while many people will disagree, plenty more will find it very attractive.

Well the UKIP factor certainly appears to be shaking both Labour and Conservative - much more than the protest votes for the Liberals/Libdems ever did.

It is to be hoped that both parties now take their heads out of their own arses and address what the Electorate really are concerned about, instead of what the parties THINK they should be concerned about.

Both of them have become way too arrogant and patronising IMO. Time for a real shake-up, not just the usual pithy "Lessons have been learned" when they clearly haven't.

We may even get the Politicians who really do care, rather than the career politicians. About time too.

What an unpleasant, classist stereotype

Yeah, I am probably not the best poster to try and pull card that on Aga.

Nice try though.

that card

I don't think it has anything to do change - central disappointed LibDems have jumped to Labour and the right wing Tories have jumped to UKIP. It's the same status quo under different banners, it's not really that much of a change. These groups have overlaps and people in those areas will jump as the winds blow. If they hadn't jumped to UKIP they'd be the ones pushing for the same things within the Conservatives. It's same shit, different name, the systems are all running the same and nothing really calls for much change. Of course these are all locals, we don't have the EU ones yet where al xenophobic groups from all nations have been making grounds repeatedly which is why the status quo throughout hasn't been challenged (we have EU countries building walls to separate people without the slightest ripple in politics).

People have been angry about immigrants about as long as they've been about disrespectful youth. Regardless of any evidence, they have for millennia been a popular kicking point to divide people. Even when Brits go out and live in the EU is pretty similar to the amounts we get in, so that if this withdraw of the EU meant the numbers were essentially the same (with more money in the country coffers as families with people from different EU countries rush to pay the fees of the for-profit immigration services and less on the other hand with those people not having jobs here) that the non-EU immigrants have already been dealing with.

None of this is any real change or a call for it, those already in positions of power are still protected and those with the least power are the most likely to be kicked around for sport in media and politics.

If you are going to employ stereotypes to slag people off Devere, then you won't wriggle out of it that easy.

Nice try though.

YABU

Its a very weird and dangerous kind of protest.