to think it proves lots of people want change

[adsy]

That ukip are making such huge gains in the elections.
If mnetters could temper their hysteria of screaming racism, I think it is a clear indication that the fundamental principals of the party of no toEurope and no to continued mass immigration are very important to a lot of people

You really can't have it both ways - linking to media articles saying he's the most popular politician in the history of ever, and then saying the media as a homogeneous whole are 'spinning like mad' against him by printing what, facts?

You've got yourself into a 'with us - fine, against us, Etonian/Bullingdonian/Oxbridgian SPINNERS'.

(BTW, a spinner is generally accepted to be someone trying to influence what journalists report.)

Lots of people want to leave the EU. A good whack of the Conservative party does. A couple of newspapers favour leaving the EU. You're letting your victim complex and conspiracy obscure the facts - that sometimes people don't like UKIP for valid reasons, despite agreeing with some of your policies. Just like some people like UKIP's policies even though I think that those policies they've bothered to explicate are fucking barking. But if you can't actually argue the facts without immediately talking about media conspiracies, Etonian elites and media spin and lies, then it makes me think that the UKIP policy position is in reality pretty shallow and you've just got a weird thing for Farage that's obscuring your view a bit.

And define populist? Given that most of those who bothered to vote in elections with low turnout chose to vote for someone else?

I wish I was a teenager again, but those days are long gone. I am not confused and I don't call you or anyone else confused, but if you want to think that then that's fine. It is a free country.

ok

'BTW, a spinner is generally accepted to be someone trying to influence what journalists report'

I use the term in the more generic sense of politicians, advisers, spin doctors and newspaper journalists trying to influence the public rather than journalists.

If someone advises Gordon Bennett to say that his favourite band is the Arctic Monkeys, then I would class that person a spinner.

Claig, you were talking earlier about political editors all being Etonians.

If you don't have any evidence for your assertion that newspapers are stuffed with old Oxbridge types (and having known quite a few of them I've seen a lot of evidence to the contrary), I'll just assume it's another of your paranoid imaginings.

No thats a PR adviser SOmeone who spins is generally trying to put another angle on a story that would otherwise show the person in it in a bad light.

I think by championing Farage as a World Statesman and UKIP being a major party it might be best to wait for A, their Manifesto and B, to see how many seats they gain at the next election.

Anything else would be a little presumptuous dont you think?

It would be interesting to see a break down of the council elections, were people voting as either a disgultled Tory wanting to send a message to the Party, someone feeling very strongly about having a referendum on Europe, or truly believes in UKIP as a party.

How many of those voters will UKIP keep, absolutely impossible to say at this moment in time.

But claig you have to accept that Farage is without a doubt a part of the Establishment, he has spun himself to some people that he is an ordinary man like themselves, he is most certainly not. He like all the rest have absolutely no concept of the struggle of the ordinary people. He is a very priviledged man living a priviledged life.

i have to say when it comes to mn political debates - claiq traditionally has been one of the best and very well informed. bit surprised at the ukip revelation which i haven't read before ( claiq may well have posted it befoe but i missed it) and some dodgy spiel which isn't factual - i think i get the general point, but claiq, you are usually more careful and factually correct from the posts i have been involved with in the past - heartily enjoyed them whether we agreed or not

i'm a bit dissapointed to be honest.

I'll just assume it's another of your paranoid imaginings

You can't have a discussion, Jassy, without getting personal, can you?

Few years ago, I attended a (non-political) event where Claig's messiah happened to be. He surrounded himself with a small group of similar white, honking, upper class twits and far from coming across as a charismatic statesman, he made my skin crawl.

And Claig, from what I know of you on here, you are being way too modest about your own personal circumstances and connections - even to the media establishment you rail against, if I remember correctly.

He surrounded himself with a small group of similar white, honking, upper class twits

Who, let's face it, Troels, are shaking the established elite to the very core, whatever you call them.

I've managed up until now - you can check my posts - but I'll be honest that Claig's refusal to engage on facts or debate and instead make wild and unsubstantiated claims made me see red.

I'll withdraw in place of 'I'll assume it's another of your wild, inaccurate, unsubstantiated claims'. Hope that's better.

In the meantime, if you can point me in the direction or where else in this discussion (and I've made a number of contributions) I've apparently offended, I'd be grateful.

'Lots of people want to leave the EU.'

Yes they do, but the power elites do not want to leave it. John Major called the Eurosceptics "bastards". The Eurosceptics are a minority in the elite power circles.

'that sometimes people don't like UKIP for valid reasons'

Of course there are valid reasons for not liking UKIP. But when the entire media class and political class try to smear UKIP as racist when they have ethnic minority candidates and are not racist then I think it is because of their wish to leave the EU which does not meet with approval at the highest levels.

'the UKIP policy position'
I am not part of UKIP, so I don't know what all of their policies are. I only know the ones such as wanting to leave the EU, against the "green crap", for proportional representation, for local referenda, for scrapping the bedroom tax, for grammar schools, for lower taxation, for cuts to quangos and foreign aid etc

And I agree with all of those.

'And define populist? Given that most of those who bothered to vote in elections with low turnout chose to vote for someone else?'

A populist party is one that listens to the people and is popular with the people. It is populist because it focuses on representation of the people rather than policies of the metropolitan elite.

Everybody calls UKIP populist, but the elite usually use the term in a pejorative sense in much the same way as they use "fruitcake" to describe ordinary voters. But I see populist as a positive term since it is for the people rather than for the metropolitan elite.

"Britain’s Discontent Lifts Populist Party to Even Stronger Vote Tally Than Expected"

www.nytimes.com/2014/05/24/world/europe/britain-elections.html?_r=0

On Sunday night, you will hear spinners using the word pejoratively all over TV because their worst nightmare is about to occur and populist parties are going to win seats in the EU.

"There will be feathers everywhere".

'Claig, you were talking earlier about political editors all being Etonians. '

I did not say all. I said some supposedly "popular" tabloids have Etonians.

Depends on who you define as the established elite. A Dulwich College-educated former commodities trader who takes £100k plus a year from taxpayers feels like part of the established elite to me.

His amazing party trick has been to convince so many that he's Just Like Them.

Star the point is the whole lot of them ARE the fucking establishment and anyone who doesn't get that - well, I despair, I really do.

Farage is covering himself with just enough of a sheen of "ordinary people" to present his "man of the people, not racist or sexist oh no not me" act. And it is an act from all I have seen and heard.

Which popular tabloids? Which political editors?

'I'll just assume it's another of your paranoid imaginings.'

I know you are very clever and have met lots of the journalists, but if you don't know who I mean, then you are not as clever as you think.

'Which popular tabloids? Which political editors?'

Why don't you google, then you might learn something.

'you are being way too modest about your own personal circumstances and connections - even to the media establishment you rail against, if I remember correctly.'

You remember wrong. I am modest because I don't know any of them.

I think populist is overstating it given their actual share of the vote and the fact that UKIP picked up less than half the number of new seats as Labour.

Feels like spin, if you will.

And it is an act from all I have seen and heard.

It can be as much of an act as he wants.........if it gets the other parties to sit up and listen. They've been dissing and dismissing UKIP for years. Now the time comes where they will HAVE to listen.

Really? I seem to recall a link to a famous redhead, and an area that is crawling with the establishment.

So what you are saying is it doesn't matter if he and many of his comrades are racist, sexist, disablist, completely on the side of big business, and out to shaft the "ordinary people" they claim to represent as long as it shakes things up?
Honestly, I hope you are very wealthy - because the earthquake you dream of (a successful UKIP) could well end up not playing out in the way you would like. In fact, I'd put money on it.

"Politicians are often accused by their opponents of claiming to be honest and seek the truth while using spin tactics to manipulate public opinion. "

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin_(public_relations)

I use spinner in the sense of someone who lies and deceives and uses spin tactics.