to think it proves lots of people want change

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That ukip are making such huge gains in the elections.
If mnetters could temper their hysteria of screaming racism, I think it is a clear indication that the fundamental principals of the party of no toEurope and no to continued mass immigration are very important to a lot of people

Since when has discussion being about refusing to accept her views, dicscussion is about exchanging ideas, we did, she changed her mind. I didnt bang on at her about any of her views. i offered actual facts and left her to make her own decisions

Also, a side issue but surely I'm not the only person appalled by the reaction here to 22honey's story? I mean, we're talking about the lived experience of a woman systematically raped and sexually exploited, and it got sort of brushed aside because people didn't like the conclusions she drew or the associations she made with the culture of her rapists? Isn't that basically what happened in Rochdale and what caused such a scandal? And that's being repeated on a forum mostly populated by women? Fucking hell

If we carry on in the EU there will eventually be little point in having a parliament of our own. As any law they make could be overturned by the EU. When it was set up it was an economic community not a federation of states. Nobody has voted in favour of a federation of states.

From personal experience, my mother was totally anti immigration, she was a typical little englander, scared of 'the foreigners' frightened about the change happening, seeing friends in the trades struggling and hearing 'funny languages'.She believed they came here to use our NHS, take social housing, claim benefits and pump out large families, meanwhile imposing Sharia law on us.She was fervent UKIP supporter

Your poor mum.

England is a very multi cultural place this phrase little Englander really rankles me...everywhere you go there is a diverse mix of people pretty much and even if pockets are not you do not have to go far to get back to a mix.

You sound like the kind of citizen Chairman Mao would have loved....

Any national law can already be overturned by the EU.

As I said, no wonder people feel our governments don't enact the will of the people. Increasingly, they can't.

The immigration debate is a symptom, not a cause, of the EU problem. The problem is not Schengen as such but the fact that it was imposed with no democratic mandate, and that its borders were then massively extended again with no democratic mandate.

Yy I agree with thus and it is immensely complex but needs to be discussed. Without resorting to nonsense

Sorry I dont see what being willing to discuss my mothers fears with her and giving her factual information has with being a blind follower of Chairman Mao, bit of a weird tangent there tbh.
I just feel quite strongly that a lot of UKIP supporters are making that choice through fear, particularly fear of change, Theres enough theories out there about change management and one of the biggies is getting people on your side (in the case of the governments immigration policy) and not alienating them from the process, which is what has happened and has led to this backlash.
When people are asking for answers and getting dismissed/called racist, told their views dont matter, then you cannot expect them to embrace the change with open arms, get them involved in a dialogue instead,

Also, a side issue but surely I'm not the only person appalled by the reaction here to 22honey's story? I mean, we're talking about the lived experience of a woman systematically raped and sexually exploited, and it got sort of brushed aside because people didn't like the conclusions she drew or the associations she made with the culture of her rapists?

I could give you a novel on my experiences of behaviour I have been a victim of, and experienced personally and of others where I live, as a direct result of houses crammed full of EE lodgers. Its been three years of sheer hell with massive involvement from Police, and council.

I cant and wouldn't dare to say more, but we need controlled immigration.

Why would anybody who had decided to vote for UKIP decide, after a 'discussion', to vote Green? They are NOTHING alike. Must have been one hell of a 'discussion' !!

I guess if someone decides on the protest vote as they are sick to death of the main parties, then it may as well go on a "nice" party.

meddie

I just feel quite strongly that a lot of UKIP supporters are making that choice through fear, particularly fear of change

Come and live with me.

I would not talk to you.

I would simply let you sit, and be...and live with what we have had to live with. You live it, you try and go about your daily life with it.

Meddie I can assure you that quite a few people I know suddenly feel a little differently when they have to live their everyday lives with issues and problems stemming from un controlled immigration.

It would be interesting to have you try and convince me of your ideas, over the blast of music, the sirens of police cars and ambulances, and everything else!

she may have told her DD she voted green to shut her up.

then you cannot expect them to embrace the change with open arms, get them involved in a dialogue instead .

All the Madmen

When people accuse me of being a Little Englander I just say better a little England than no England at all , as that is the aim of the EU.

Usually shuts them up.

But, leaving aside immigration and the EU - why UKIP? Why not one of the other parties?

Because by voting UKIP you're saying that you're ok with all their views, not just the ones about those issues.

But Wet we are a hugely multi cultural, cultured nation who is a world leader on being fair to everyone.

Yes we have un desirables, yes like everywhere else people espouse un pleasant views but my goodness, we try don't we to make everything fair?
We are one of the richest nations on earth, we have always had massive trade with other countries...we are not closed off and narrow!

Its a non sense phrase.

So when my mother says 'all these foreigners are coming here and signing on and taking money out of the uk' I should no longer say well actually mum immigrants put more money back into the economy than they take out '

Should I have accused her of being an ignorant racist instead? Because obviously you seem to have issue with talking about it
Personally I think talking about it is of more use

well actually mum immigrants put more money back into the economy than they take out

Including those on HM, CB, etc. etc. Really?

You seriously think that there isn't a complete black economy of immigrants working cash in hand?

Ah well........let's wait and see what the European Election results bring tomorrow.

I am sure your Mum is really pleased that she voted for a party that got absolutely nowhere!

well actually it did. the green candidate won in our ward. but you seem intent on shutting down any discussion about this issue, so I,ll take my leave from this thread.
personally I do have issues with UKIP, funnily enough not about their immigration or EU stance, I understand where they are coming from even if I dont necessarily agree with it. But I would hate to see a party that believes women should have less rights and that rape in marriage should be made legal get any actual power

The issue I have with UKIP isn't to do with immigration or the EU either...there were half a dozen parties on the ballot with similar stances on that, why not vote for one of them?

One who doesn't have their views on other areas...

The thing is, there are plenty of antisocial behaviour issues among non-immigrants too. I think it must be utterly awful and there should be powers to deal better with it (including, in my view, being able to ban even EU immigrants from the country for certain things.

But is it the fault of immigration, or is it the fault of a system that doesn't tackle these problems effectively?

I think that's my problem with 'immigration' being used as a catch-all. It encompasses so many different things, problems, benefits, and groups. Policy needs to be more precise to have the desired impact.

I agree with Hazel on funding for least favoured areas, like Cornwall. In EU funding, there are criteria and formulae for allocation of funds. In domestic politics, no matter how good intentions are at the outset, it's remarkable how many marginal constituencies suddenly become priorities for funding once an election is looming, and the areas that have always been fucked over stay fucked over.

Personally I think talking about it is of more use

Of course it is, but those whose default position is to cry "racist" have gone unchallenged for a long time and won't give that up easily

As AllTheMadmen said, people tend to forget their competitive liberalism when actually faced with its results; if UKIP's success creates a more open debate on these issues then I'll believe they've done us all a favour, even though I wouldn't want them actually in power

But I would hate to see a party that believes women should have less rights and that rape in marriage should be made legal get any actual power

If you show me this in their manifesto I will take back everything I've said.

Their financial supporters and /or members have been documented as expressing those opinions. That's enough for me to have no time for them.

StarGazey, if you can show me where they've published a any thought-through policies since the last election, I'll have a lot more time for this. They don't have a manifesto and Farage has madly distanced himself from the last one while avoiding replacing it with anything else.

They studiously avoid talking about anything but the EU and immigration. But they don't distance themselves from comments about women, in particular, or their flat-rate tax policy. Farage has said some particularly interesting things - a quick google will give you quotes and videos.

Also, can we make a deal? Everyone stop knee jerk name calling. That includes 'racist' without evidence or thinking it through, it also includes automatically calling someone Maoist or Stalinist if they have different views from you, or god help us to discuss the basis of each other's political beliefs., or supporting pixies marginally to the left of yours.

It's lazy, it's tedious and it impedes proper debate.