to think it proves lots of people want change

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That ukip are making such huge gains in the elections.
If mnetters could temper their hysteria of screaming racism, I think it is a clear indication that the fundamental principals of the party of no toEurope and no to continued mass immigration are very important to a lot of people

I'm not denying anything. But we have systems in place to try to ensure fairness and justice. Surely the mechanism of law that you describe is British culture of tolerance and fairness in action?

It's not about 'silencing debate' about immigration. But surely you can see the difference between stating that you do not agree with EU policy on this matter and would like the UK to leave Europe and ascribing criminal behaviour to one particular 'group' of immigrants.

UKIP supporters are styling themselves as 'telling it like it is' but unfortunately this is prejudice in lieu of facts.

But we have systems in place to try to ensure fairness and justice.

Agreed.

And those systems are massively under strain trying to deal with large groups of people who have no inherent sympathy with 'fairness and justice' as it applies to other groups - such as gay people.

The Slovak case I have just cited cost the state an enormous amount of money as interpreters had to be provided for the parents - despite making their home in England, they did not speak English.

I am not racist for being concerned about that. When child protection and mental health support systems are being cut to the bone, I am worried about spending large sums of public money on providing translation services for people who chose to make their home here. I would not expect the Spanish government to provide me with an English speaking interpreter if I emigrated to Spain for eg.

I don't agree with prejudice or racism or any other way that discriminates against people purely because of the colour of their skin or where their parents came from.

What I do have a massive problem with is pretending that Western secular tolerance can simply absorb large groups of people are who are NOT secular and who are NOT very tolerant, without their being some quite serious consequences.

this is the debate we need to be having, but we can't because simply to mention it is apparently 'racist'.

What about the Iranian actress who faces a public flogging after a peck the cheek at the Cannes film festival?

jezebel.com/iranian-actress-may-face-public-flogging-for-peck-on-th-1580884138?

I don't want these kind of men in my country. But they are already here. So we need to discuss how we keep them and their abhorrent views in check.

I don't really see what the Iranian actress story (terrible as it is) has to do with immigration.

Most Muslim men are just getting on with paying their bills and nagging their children just like everyone else. Same with my Sikh, catholic and Chinese neighbours.

But I thought this discussion was about UKIP

"Protest vote' is no excuse for demeaning yourself to vote for scum."

This.

My point is there are lots of young men at universities NOW who believe that. Do you not remember the recent debate about segregated audiences at universities recently?

I thought this was part of the UKIP debate. Because they object to immigration and people who object to immigration are being told they are racist.

I am providing examples of why I object to the uncontrolled influx into a western, secular democracy of large groups of people who are not secular and who are or tolerant.

If non of the mainstream parties will address this because they are so afraid of being called racists, I can understand the appeal of UKIP to many.

Sigh.

Calling UKIP 'scum' and those who vote for them presumably 'scum' as well will simply drive many more people into their arms.

If you are SO right and so not scummy, why is there no debate? Why just name calling? Who is going to change their mind because you call them 'scum'?

But at least we have moved on a bit. I am not racist but my dad is 'scum'. Good to know.

Cornwall gets fuck all from Westminster and vast amounts of investment from the EU.

In the words of another poster, anyone Cornish voting for UKIP is like a turkey voting for Christmas.

Maybe "vast amounts of investment" was an exaggeration. It doesn't get vast amounts of anything except tourists.

I should have said "pretty much all its investment". All its training, apprenticeship schemes and so on have come from convergence funding in the last few years. I dread to think of the state of Cornwall if the UK left the EU.

There's no reason that Cornwall couldn't get just as much investment from Westminster. Where do you think the EU gets its money in the first place, anyway?

His policies fill me with dread. But this is what you get when a smug metropolitan elite treat the people with contempt

Thus writes Dominic Sandbrook in the DM. It really is worth reading the whole article www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2637925/His-policies-dread-But-smug-metropolitan-elite-treat-people-contempt-writes-DOMINIC-SANDBROOK.html .........especially for those who are just shouting 'racist', but I don't expect you will (because this is a well-written and sensible article that you probably wouldn't want to understand and is in the dreaded DM). Shame on you, then, for being so narrow-minded.

Well said - where does the EU get 'its' money from? From EU members. Rather circular. Depressing that so many seem to think the EU has free money to dole out. It has a eye-wateringly bloated and wasteful bureaucracy, funded by tax-payers - real, live people who work hard for that money.

And those systems are massively under strain trying to deal with large groups of people who have no inherent sympathy with 'fairness and justice' as it applies to other groups - such as gay people

This is an interesting point and I have had a few personal episodes of this. It has made me wonder whether the values we strive towards here are as prevalent in the communities that are coming to settle here in enormous numbers.

I had an issue with some Polish men living next door. I called the police and when he arrived I told him what had gone on, and what I had done about it ( prior to calling them) ie trying to resolve things myself.

HE said to me ( please note that before you attack me) The police officer told me:

"It could be because your female, some cultures don't listen to the women, but they are in the UK now, and they have to toe our lines and abide by our rules".

We have a number of EE Natonals living on our street, our street could not be more multi cultural with a myriad of nationalities on it. The houses with the densest living of EE Nationals have caused anti social problems to a great degree, they have not done themselves any favours here. If we see a police car here, we know which house its going too. There have been a few stabbings, lots of fighting, drinking and so on. We also have some families who are normal and no issues at all, they are not happy with them either.

But in with the families and the hard workers, because we cannot control who comes in, we also have some people who are causing social issues. Hence a few towns have had to ban drinking in the town center and put up signs in english and polish to crub it .

Tucson, I struggle to believe that once out of Europe, that the equivalent money raised in taxation would be ploughed back into infrastructure and investment fairly and on a needs-driven way round the country.

And I was a Labour voter, not racist - this has nothing at all to do with race - who voted, like many of all ethnicities, for UKIP as a protest vote and will continue to do so as none of the main parties get it. Ed Milliband is even more out of touch than David Cameron and Nick Clegg, which is saying something.

"Tucson, I struggle to believe that once out of Europe, that the equivalent money raised in taxation would be ploughed back into infrastructure and investment fairly and on a needs-driven way round the country."
Well we do live in a democracy so there's no reason why it couldn't be if the desire was there.

Well we do live in a democracy so there's no reason why it couldn't be if the desire was there.

:o :o :o :o

Those were bitter and ironic grins, by the way.

“Labour has to refocus and fast. The ‘cost of living crisis’ is a good line but not enough to sustain the party through a general election campaign in which economic credibility will be everything. The party needs to build its message around the commitment to economic competence, fiscal responsibility and a sustainable recovery which brings new jobs and new industries to every corner of the UK.”

Miliband doesn't even know his own cost of living, his weekly shop, totally lost credibility. I think more people are going to vote UKIP after this and according to Independent, UKIP are working harder to make sure people with extreme and offensive views are not allowed in the party.

Whatever happens over the next 11 months, we need discussion, without name calling. its getting us no where, closing down debate and dismissing peoples fears , whether they are right or wrong, is not the way to handle it as has been shown by UKIPS rise.

From personal experience, my mother was totally anti immigration, she was a typical little englander, scared of 'the foreigners' frightened about the change happening, seeing friends in the trades struggling and hearing 'funny languages'.She believed they came here to use our NHS, take social housing, claim benefits and pump out large families, meanwhile imposing Sharia law on us.She was fervent UKIP supporter.

I could have dismissed her as a racist, ignorant xenophobe, instead we discussed it. I explained about the benefits immigration brought, about the fact that immigrants on the whole paid tax and contributed to our society and about how most benefit claimants where actually working families or pensioners.
She still has some suspect views, but she voted green instead of UKIP, as she was willing to listen and reform her views when she had the facts.
Thats what we need to be doing, we need discussion and education, not hysteria and name calling

Well, well, well.

Am laughing my head off listening to all the 'mea culpa' in the Press and on the Beeb for slagging off UKIP.

When they strat doing that (i.e. protecting their arses in case UKIP ever gains power) you just know the party is gaining strength.

And listening to Cameron banging on about his 'frustration' at not having reduced immigration - FFS!

Cameron - you lead the Conservatives

Cameron - the Conservatives are in power (along with Claggy)

Cameron - the Govt is there TO MAKE POLICY. So there's no need to be 'frustrtaed' about anything - make legislation that will overcome thi things that 'frustrate' you.

Oooops - I forgot - he can't. Because the immigration policy that 'frustrates' him is set by the EU and he can't change it.

Oh well - stay frustrated them

The Late, but why UKIP specifically as your protest vote? I'm interested as their economic policies aren't up to much for most people.

What would it take, in your eyes, to be able to believe any of the major parties have 'got it'?

The immigration debate is a symptom, not a cause, of the EU problem. The problem is not Schengen as such but the fact that it was imposed with no democratic mandate, and that its borders were then massively extended again with no democratic mandate.

The root issue is the lack of ability ordinary people feel to influence decisions that impact on them, that are increasingly taken in Brussels. Instead we are told 'oh you can't change that without leaving the EU, and if we leave the EU no-one on the continent will trade with us and Britain will turn into a crappy backwater and your children will grow up in poverty with no human rights' and other such alarmist nonsense. As if small states like Singapore have any trouble trading with Europe

EU legislation is proposed by an unelected body, not by the European Parliament (which, btw, the UK only has something like 10% of the seats in). Our ability to influence laws which then supersede those of our national parliament is negligible. It is no wonder the electorate feels increasingly like the government isn't listening: many of the laws they have to enact originate from somewhere else altogether.

Schengen is the most acute of these because so many people are affected by it. But the problem isn't the immigration as such, it's the sense of frustration at the way it's beyond the power even of our supposedly sovereign parliament to change it without massive ramifications in foreign policy terms.

instead we discussed it

So meddie - you couldn't accept her views and had to change them to yours !!