To think people should't take part in religious ceremonies that they have no respect for

[Vintagejazz]

I was at my niece's first Holy Communion in Dublin today and the behaviour in the Church was absolutely shocking. People chatting throughout the Mass, standing up taking photographs durng the ceremony despite the priest having requested at the start that people wouldn't do this, allowing toddlers to scream and roar without taking them outside, and basically treating the whole thing with no respect whatsoever.
If people don't have any belief and don't see First Holy Communion as a sacred religious event, that's fine. But why take part and ruin it for the people for whom it does have some meaning (not to mention the huge discourtesy to the teachers who had spent months planning, organising and rehearsing so that the event would be meaningful and lovely).
It was awful and someone back at the lunch afterwards told me they were at a Holy Communion last week where the noise was even worse.

Why do people do this? No one's putting a gun to their heads and fording them to take part. Either treat church ceremonies and services with respect, or don't partake.

YANBU.

As for children, some noise is fine, but they should be taken out when they get noisy.

My child STOOD BETWEEN the bride and groom at out last family wedding,
Vintage jazz, holding on to the brides hand very tightly. No doubt some people on here would have kittens at the thought of it! the vicar invited all the children forward to be part of the ceremony, and my cousin the bride has several times since said how nice it was to be standing in a crowd of children!

I just don't know what you mean by "respect". Surely a Christian ceremony is an occasion for Christians to be worshipping God, praying and celebrating together. How is that made any more meaningful by banning small children ? Straight away it is less of a communion between the Christian community and God, isn't it.

I think you have maybe got the wrong idea about what the service is for.

I said, 'a little' loud not shouting.

I don't know anybody who thinks it's OK for babies/children to cry/tantrum/scream through even ordinary Mass, let alone a first communion. I don't think they should be 'banned' but I do think they should be removed for the 'rights' of the hundreds of other people who want to listen to the Mass.

removed if they are making a shit load of noise that is.

I love my church, they do 3 special Christmas services just for children each Christmas. It used to be just one but they're so popular people travel from all parts of the town to participate. It's lovely. I'm lucky with my church and tbh others could learn from it

Unfortunately a lot of parents nowadays just see First Holy Communion as being all about the dress and the party and treat the Church part as a minor nuisance. Personally I think the Church should start to make it clear that they only want children presented for holy communion by parents who practise their religion and understand and respect the sacrament. I have been at several First Holy Communions in Dublin recently which have just been big noisy free for alls, with the poor priest desperately trying to bring a bit of religion into the occasion.

Did any Irish posters read Ross O'Carroll Kelly in the Irish Times today. Sums it up brilliantly.

First communion season in Ireland is feckin mental!

AElf how is it showing respect if parents are chatting through out the ceremony and standing up to take photographs at solemn moments, even when they have been asked not to do so.

And where did the OP say children shouldn't be welcome? She was talking about screaming toddlers not being brought outside to calm down so that the children making their First Holy Communion could do their readings, bidding prayers and solo songs without being drowned out.

Do you know what a First Holy Communion Mass is about, or have you ever been to one? Genuine question as, to an Irish Catholic, your posts seem disconnected from the OP.

I agree that little children can be noisy, chatter, wriggle around; or, when they're toddlers can loudly ask, "Mummy, why is that man wearing a dress?" And so on. That's normal, and is what the "Suffer [allow] the little children to come unto me" was all about.

But that's not what VintageJazz is talking about. It's the adults, who should know better, who were the problem. They were being grossly disrespectful. And if a baby/child is screaming, they're not happy and, at the least, should be taken to the back of the church where there's a bit more room to calm them down or let them move around.

Don't worry, need, the celebrant will be familiar with the situation of many of the congregation not having a clue. Some of those will be non-members, some will be lapsed and have forgotten; a good celebrant will cue the congregation, and those cues will probably be included in the service sheet, eg "all stand" or "all sit".

The 'service' isn't bloody well there for a child to scream and shout over anyway. That isn't to say children aren't welcome. A child is perfectly able to sit quietly for an hour.

(Neither is it there for people with smartphones or smart arse comments to make loudly in the middle of Consecration.(

I'm not Catholic, but from a non-Catholic Irish person's point of view 1st communion seems to be all about the dresses and the money, less religious even than Christmas. Even my DS was saying last year that he wanted to be Catholic (he goes to a C of I primary which has quite a few Catholic children in his year) because the Catholic kids in his class were getting loads of money for their 1st communion and he didn't see why he should miss out. I did say to him that it's about people understanding their beliefs and joining in with their church, but none of his friends had mentioned anything even slightly spiritual so DS didn't believe me.

Elf could you point out where, in any of my posts, I said children should be 'banned' from church services. Your posts are actually quite offensive and I, like a poster up thread, am curious as to whether you understand what a First Holy Communion ceremony is about or if you've ever been to one.

There is usually somewhere to take small children in services that are too long and too tedious to expect them to sit through.

If you're visiting an unfamiliar church, then you need to prepared, with a pile of quiet distractions (eg colouring)and take them to the back or to a side chapl if getting restive.

Whatever you think of the service, it's wrong to disrupt it or permit children to disrupt it, even if you are all entitled to be present.

daisy - I never said it was okay for a child to scream during singing. I think it is obvious I was making a distinction between when it was awful to be making a noise and when it was less of a distraction.

Surely a Christian ceremony is an occasion for Christians to be worshipping God, praying and celebrating together. How is that made any more meaningful by banning small children?

Because if you can't hear the readings, the gospel, the homily, the prayers, the creed etc then you aren't praying and celebrating together. You're just all sitting in the same room listening to a lot of screaming. I don't think anyone is suggesting removing children to beyond the parish boundary, just taking them into the porch or the hall or something for a few minutes until they pipe down, like you would at a school assembly or something.

As for respect - it is disrespectful to talk over someone else. It just is. To allow your child to talk over someone else either because you can't stop them or won't remove them is disrespectful too. To allow your child to scream during another child's reading or prayer or solo is disrespectful and shitty.

My dd was 10 weeks old at my sisters wedding and when I did the reading she proceeded to wake up half way through and scream down the microphone. My sister howled with laughter and said it was the highlightof the service that her ddd had wanted to have her as. The priest made an express point of telling me not to remove my dd if she cried, she was family and entitled to be there.

My friend went to take her dd out my my dd's christening because she was getting fractious and calling out during the service. The vicar was lovely and went up and told my friend to sort back down, picked up her dd and continues his service with her 9 month old on his arms.

Not all churches are as narrow minded as to think children should be seen and not heard

If my child was singing a solo at her First Holy Communion and some stranger's child was allowed to scream throughout it neither I, not the child's grandparents would be 'howling with laughter'. A First Holy Communion is not comprised of just one family like a wedding or christening might be. There were about fifty children making their Communion in the Church today. Do you really think it would be okay to let your child roar over some other child trying to do a reading or sing a hymn, and assume everyone in the Church would be 'howling with laughter'

I think YABU, but in principal I agree. At the end of the day, parents, children, everyone acting with no respect were doing so because they don't have respect. In the UK its different, but in Ireland with so many primary schools - what, 80%? - being faith-based, people are christening their child for a school place. I would say 90% of christenings I've been to have had atheist parents, who were doing it either for grandparents (which I don't think is right) or to get them into school, which I totally understand. Not the right school, any school.

If that is the backdrop, then of course communions become about the dress, and the photographs, and a glorified school pageant. So while I agree with what you're saying, in Ireland at least until the church and state change then its only to be expected.

(If I sound a bit bitter, its because I am: I genuinely think its hypocritical and disrespectful and wouldn't have dc christned as a result, but it is a factor in me moving back to Ireland in the future: I'm not sure my children would get a school place).

It is the worst behaved people who most need to be in church. Anyone who thinks someone shouldn't be in church because they are "disrespectful" has completely missed the point of church,

Even if people are only 'going through the motions' because they want to get their children into a certain school, fit in with what other children are doing etc should they not still show respect to the people for whom the sacrament is important. All they're being asked to do is sit quietly for an hour, not take photographs until the ceremony is over, and make sure screaming toddlers are brought outside so that they don't distract or drown out the Communion children trying to sing, do readings, say bidding prayers etc.
It's just manners and consideration.

AElf so it's okay for disprespectful people to come to church and chat, take photographs and allow their toddlers to scream during wedding vows, holy communion readings etc.? Is that what you're saying?

Yanbu. We're going to a Holy Communion tomorrow. My dd's (nealy3 and 5), have strict instructions to behave. Dh has strict instructions to take dd's out of the church if they misbehave. Dh isn't Catholic, so he gets the job of taking them away.

I don't understand people who are rowdy in church during such an important service. It really is unnecessary. Yes, a church is child friendly, but when they're screaming and running around, they need to be taken outside to calm down.

Daisymaisi it is God's house, and he wouldn't be turning them away!