...to want to say 'honour and obey' in my vows?

[SteelyMindedLiberal]

Background: we're both feminists. He's a strong personality, very intelligent, very loving, considerate, supports my career, does (more than) half the housework, cooking etc. We're not Christian or conservative.

But...

I am completely submissive to him and he sets the tone in every aspect of our relationship. Obviously there is a strong (and very hot!) BDSM undercurrent to all this. But it goes way beyond the bedroom: he leads, I follow, it's obvious and noticeable, and we both love it.

He's 'in charge'; never controlling. I am always listened to, and feel completely equal. I just do as he says and trust him to do the right thing. We're not ashamed of how we are, it's fundamental to us and because of that we want it to be included in our vows. He says it's up to me but he would like it very much, and I really, really want to say it.

BUT: it would mean outing our 'activities' to all our family and friends. I don't want our wedding to become all about that one line. Maybe no one would really care or give it any thought? We're happy to simply say: 'that's our dynamic and it works for us', to most people, but he has a 20-year-old daughter and it's her we're most worried about. She's sassy and worldly and she'd get it at once and probably be fine with it in private, but might find it really embarrassing and awkward... argh!

Help! It's the whole please ourselves or please others thing, I suppose...

And if he asked me to empty the dishwasher, I'd do it

No questions asked?

(will do it after school run that is!)

The thing about feminism, right, is that you don't get to pick and choose which women you support. As long as she has made the choice freely and isn't hurting anyone, I would support a woman's right to choose to get an orange tan, dress only in leaves and communicate through the medium of interpretive dance. Not what I would choose, seems bizarre to me, but as a feminist I would support that choice.

I submit quite happily (in a non sexual way... Dh doesn't force any issue... ;-) ). but I have to say it only works well when both are singing from the same hymn sheet. I have a say, I am totally free, but he has the deciding vote (after I have convinced him what that should be... ;-) ). DD is clearly ok witnessing this. She only intends to get a husband so that he can look after the babies while she runs her own business... (Apparently, this is the solution to child care issues...).

The key here is REPECT. DH respects me, and doesn't use me. The children know it is not right to submit to abuse (entirely different to what it actually means).

If she is wilfully submitting in her own way, that that is fine... She isn't being 'made' to submit. This is probably why she sees herself (and her to be DH) as feminists.

I don't see myself as a feminist at all as I don't require a label. Clearly I am raising one tho... :-/

I would totally notice. I would notice and it would raise one of my eyebrows in a church ceremony, but I'd assume they just wanted the old fashioned vows.

But in a civil ceremony - it's going to stand out a mile as a deliberate statement.

Civil vows are simply:

I do solemnly declare that I know not of any lawful impediment why I, may not be joined in matrimony to

I call upon these persons here present to witness that I, do take thee, , to be my lawful wedded husband/wife.

Some registrars will allow a small amount of personalisation as well, some won't. I've seen people make little personal 'speeches/vows' to each other of a few sentences that promise to look after each other and so on. I guess if your registrar allows it you could sneak it into something like that. I still think it'll stand out a mile.

I repeat. What sort of a message do you think this would send to his daughter about what sort of man her father is?

Feminism is about choice- the ability to make choices that don't perpetuate oppression, and don't make other women's lives harder.

OP, out of interest, how old are you and how old is he? And if you have a daughter, how would you feel about her seeing her mother being submissive to her dominant father?

This is like saying that makeup is inherently anti feminist. Just because some women are or feel forced to wear it doesn't mean that it is impossible to wear lipstick and be feminist. Marriage is the same kind of thing.

There are some problematic elements within the whole bdsm culture/lifestyle, but that doesn't mean everyone with these identities shares the problems.

And I find it deeply depressing that you describe being assertive as "being a sassy bitch".

I'm the submissive in my relationship and although it's not every single word, i do "obey and honour" him. He listens to me and helps with my problems and makes me feel very special, which caters to my type of submissive.
He leads, I follow. Like a dance! I see it as very exciting, romantic and spontaneous. I don't see a problem with these vows
No one will think anything of it, they'll just think you've opted for traditional vows. It's very obvious to everyone that I am his submissive. I've outed myself to a lot of people. We don't really have the space or privacy to explore our bdsm fantasies, but we try to and that flows into our every day lives. Anyone can tell you that bdsm is more than just a sexuality, it's a lifestyle.
It's all about respect so YADNBU. wish you luck!

Well, people are also saying you can't do it anyway because it's a civil service so it's a moot point?

Of those who say they would notice, it's more they think you are a doormat that linking it to the bedroom.

And if you had a daughter, jaaaackspqrrow?

Feminism doesn't mean that anything goes as long as the choice is made freely. I think feminism had a wider responsibility than that. I wouldn't support a lap dancer who makes an informed choice, because their job contributes to women being viewed as objects. I also wouldn't support the choice of a high class sex worker who loves her job and pays her taxes, because she is attempting to legitimise an industry where women at the other end of the scale are trafficked and abused. Feminists aren't obliged to support every decision made by a woman.

'No one will think anything of it'

Well that's not true. Lots of people would be very surprised to hear it.

Mortorana: my stepdaughter's words. Not mine.

I'm another one who would definitely notice. BDSM would not be my first thought (until now) instead I would be wondering if I had slipped into some kind of time warp.
No real feminist would do this- it flies in the face of 100s of years struggle for women to have equality in marriage and elsewhere. Do you want to ask permission to sign a credit agreement or similar? because that's what the reality of 'unequal' marriage means.
I can just about get my head round the idea of consensual BDSM practice in a sexual context (although I think it's dodgy and dangerous) but I cannot see it a s healthy outside the bedroom.

Brittapieandchips, if I could like your post I would! Completely agree. Feminism is about not being compelled to do or not do anything on the basis of gender, surely? If the OP and her fiancé have this dynamic and they both are willing and happy partners to it, that says nothing in itself about anyone else's relationship. Just because most women would not choose this does not mean the OP hasn't exercised free will. I choose not to dye my hair or wear makeup and I don't see why I should, but I would absolutely support the right of other women to do so. It's like anything else in a free society, freedom of choice means freedom to choose things that other people would not choose, surely?

I've honestly given up expecting any respect or understanding on here for my consensual choices.

I suggest you do the same

Thanks JaackSparrow! Hurrah! Someone who gets it!

I notice nobody is addressing the point about children in such relationships? Will you submit to your sons and encourage your daughters to submit to both their father and their brothers? Children learn how relationships work from their parents......

Well, I hate phrases about "wearing the trousers" in relationships, steely, but I get what you're saying.

Definitely with Britta on this, too. I wouldn't want this sort of relationship myself, but I don't see it as intrinsically unfeminist. I don't think what the OP is doing, given the way she's explained it & qualified it, perpetuates oppression or negatively affects other women's lives in any way.

And if adopting a submissive role towards a man does does have those effects, why is it okay when it's "just" part of sexual activity (& most people seem to assume it is)? How can BDSM in the bedroom just be trivial fun & games, even in a serious relationship / marriage, but then become a damaging antifeminist statement the minute it extends into other aspects of someone's relationship? I find those assumptions odd - & a bit trivialising towards deep-rooted sexual preferences.

Britta: yups. seeing that! As for those saying what about if I had a daughter, I have feminist discussions with my man and friends all the time, about how things seem to be going backwards, over-sexualisation of young girls etc. I'd talk like this with any daughter I have, as with other political and topical issues, and she'd have her own mind on the subject, I would hope.

it's much easier to make a case for wearing make up etc as a choice freely made compatible with feminism than it is for voluntarily entering into a relationship which reflects the patriarchy around us- where men have power and women don't. Will you still vote?

I am gobsmacked by the "feminism isn't about choice" statement. I'm not up on feminist literature but I'd always thought feminism meant supporting women to lead the life they wanted?

there isn't one type of "one size fits all" feminist lifestyle, is there?

oh my god of course I'd vote! Aahahahaahahaaha