...to want to say 'honour and obey' in my vows?

[SteelyMindedLiberal]

Background: we're both feminists. He's a strong personality, very intelligent, very loving, considerate, supports my career, does (more than) half the housework, cooking etc. We're not Christian or conservative.

But...

I am completely submissive to him and he sets the tone in every aspect of our relationship. Obviously there is a strong (and very hot!) BDSM undercurrent to all this. But it goes way beyond the bedroom: he leads, I follow, it's obvious and noticeable, and we both love it.

He's 'in charge'; never controlling. I am always listened to, and feel completely equal. I just do as he says and trust him to do the right thing. We're not ashamed of how we are, it's fundamental to us and because of that we want it to be included in our vows. He says it's up to me but he would like it very much, and I really, really want to say it.

BUT: it would mean outing our 'activities' to all our family and friends. I don't want our wedding to become all about that one line. Maybe no one would really care or give it any thought? We're happy to simply say: 'that's our dynamic and it works for us', to most people, but he has a 20-year-old daughter and it's her we're most worried about. She's sassy and worldly and she'd get it at once and probably be fine with it in private, but might find it really embarrassing and awkward... argh!

Help! It's the whole please ourselves or please others thing, I suppose...

What TheGirlFromIpanema said.

I'm also a bit confused, you say it's an obvious and noticable aspect of your relationship beyond the bedroom, and yet you say you're reluctant to out your activities to your friends and family. Either it's obvious that you are submissive outside the bedroom and comfortable with that being public knowledge, or you're not

As an aside, I don't think the 'honour and obey' vow is the best example for a 'feminist' man to be setting his 20 year old daughter. If she questions it will you tell her the real reason?

Well I wanted obey in my vows (but the vicar forgot.... It is a bit of a joke now), but ours is not a BdSM one... So I wouldn't assume anything. Btw. Submissive (in the vows from which you take these words), does not = doormat... (In fact, I have it somewhat easier than DH... From a traditional vows point of view).

Anyhow...

Perhaps you could introduce a few props so people are clear on your meaning? Then they won't ask. But am guessing some of your friends at least will share your world view? The 20yr old is a grown up. She probably know what is going on anyway. Hey if my sister can have zombies and heavy metal, you can have this. My only query will be if the reg office will allow it (as might be seen as referring to religious vows), my sister could not even have a secular song with the word Angel in it! Zombies and hard core metal yes, angels no.

Anyone that catches that you have a steamy BDSM life behind closed doors off two words from your wedding vows is seriously reading way too much into them. I mean, unless you do a slutty voice with a suggestive gesture, not one will think anything of it.

On that note, we went to a Christian pastor to ask him to do our wedding. He insisted that my husband was the leader responsible for our faith, and me. My husband spent the rest of the day putting up with my immature bullshit with me making blasphemous jokes and telling him my jokes were more on him than me. Honor and obey were not in our vows. Our vows were actually very nice, I think we wrote them? Or we were given some samples to pick from?

Anyway, I can't even remember my own vows wow that sounds terrible, I highly, highly doubt that anyone else is going to think anything of it.

As others have said, I'm not sure that you will be able to include those words in a civil ceremony anyway.

If I heard them, I wouldn't make the BDSM association. I'd just think you were a bit downtrodden and pathetic, tbh.

I do think your relationship sounds unhealthy (from what you've said - I appreciate that in rl it is more nuanced than can be conveyed on here). WHY would you want to be submissive(in life, not sexually, sex games are fun I guess) to someone? Why give control to another person? Sure. he's great now, but people change.

You're not a feminist. All the mouthiness in the world means nothing when in practice you act like a doormat who has to be told what to do by a man.

I'd think you were a doormat, I wouldn't think you were sexually submissive. I don't think I'd raise the issue of the vows with anyone, it's up to them. I'd just judge them privately.

^You couldn't use that wording in a civil service
It is taken from the CofE book of common prayer and as such would be classed as religious and therefore not allowed in a civil ceremony...^

Sparechange, in that case OP has the choice taken away from her as she said upthread it would be a civil ceremony; and just as well, in my opinion.

When we had out civil ceremony there were 3 choices of words, one with 'thou', one with 'you' and one where you just say 'yes'. I chose the latter, but the registrar told DH it was really for people who can't speak English. There is no 'obey' option.

Do you intend to have children? I would be worried about the rolemodel you might be to children. Obviously the way you act in your relationship is mutually agreed, but I wouldn't want a daughter to internalise that as a norm in case it resulted in her tolerating genuine abuse from a future partner. Or a son believing it is the normal way to behave towards women.

Not the sex bit, it's the obeying in daily life bit I would like to know about (really DON'T want gory details!)

Thanks though

...and yeah, you're not a feminist. Feminism is as feminism does. Submitting to another person, nah, that isn't feminism.

And exactly what message does this send to your partner's daughter about him? That he publicly expects his wife to "obey" him? Jesus.

Haha Testing, "I'd just judge them privately" - me too. I do enjoy a nice juicy bit of private judgmentalism.

I immediately thought 'ooh, I bet they are D/s!' when I read the title. But then I go around trying to collar spot too, so I doubt I'm normal...

I'd leave it out, precisely because of the ignorance and other bollocks around bdsm - you can see in this thread that people think consensual lifestyle choices are anti feminist, that relationship dynamics exist only in the bedroom and so on. Until we live in a world where people realise feminism is about choice (and bdsm/open/whatever relationship issues always get flamed to hell on here and that makes me really angry) then we have to keep some of our choices hidden unless we want a fight.

Can you maybe do a second celebration/event at a fetish venue or something?

I'm with claraschu & Blu. I absolutely would notice this, & if I knew you weren't some sort of conservative evangelical Christian, or weirdly old-fashioned, I'd definitely be speculating that it might reflect a BDSM or dominant / submissive dynamic in your relationship.

And I'd wonder why you would want to include that in a public ceremony, yes. Though you do say the dynamic is "obvious & noticeable" anyway, so maybe it won't be a surprise to most people there? If that is the case, why isn't it obvious to your partner's daughter? Do you tone it down when she's around?

they're your vows, say what you want. (within the rules.) I don't think any relatives etc would notice anything more than they hadn't already about your relationship.

Feminism is NOT about choice! There are numerous treatise on this subject.

Feminism is about EQUALITY for women.

How the FUCK is making a carefully considered decision to live an alternative lifestyle not feminist?

Feminism is about CHOICE. As long as the OP is free to discuss, change or leave, and has made the choice freely, then it is nobody else's job to tell her that her choice is wrong just because it doesn't match theirs.

Interesting thread. Depends who you are as to whether you choose to obey. I always said I would obey my DH so long as his requests were reasonable. It then gives me a way out. Obviously, this was not included in our vows - in civil ceremonies there isn't an option of it nowadays.

Oh. Now loads of people are saying they WOULD notice. Which, given I'm a very assertive person in every other aspect of my life, is what I thought.

What saddens me the most is people assuming I'm a doormat and he's a tyrant. It's an easy and obvious conclusion, and I know I'm not 'normal' in wanting this so understand why lots of people would think that way. Still a shame though, because essentially it's not accepting that other people can be different, that they might not think or feel the way you do. I've always seen the way I am as a distinct sexuality that affects my entire lifestyle and all my relationships, a little like being gay.

As for the vows, I've flipped back to no. Which is a shame, but we can always just do that bit in private, as someone said.

And if he asked me to empty the dishwasher, I'd do it. I wouldn't make vows I planned to break! We've been doing this for ages now so it feels very normal and natural to me.

Nethuns - please give me a link to any respected source that says feminism isn't about choice.

And there are plenty of male subs.

Choices are not made in a socio-cultural vacuum.

Think about it.

I would have never, ever thought anyone who said 'honour and obey' in their wedding vows was into BDSM.

I will now though!

I shall! Off on school run, but in the mean time there's absolutely loads of discussions on forums (including here) with links to scholarly publications. And just because men do it doesn't make it ok.