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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be confused by the Halal meat thing.

286 replies

LEMmingaround · 08/05/2014 13:37

I don't understand why this is a problem. 90% of the animals are stunned before they are killed anyway - so what is the problem?

I do think it should be labelled as there are some religeons (sihks i think) for who this would be a problem but people getting upset over halal meat served in subway/pizza express? REALLY? To me it just sounds like an excuse for prejudice. Those people quite happy to eat the meat from there tht is not halal and probably don't give a flying fuck what happened to the animals during their lives or at their slaughter. If you were tht worried about that sort of thing you would a) be vegetarian/vegan or b) only ever eat meat that you knew where it came from and that was treated properly. Am i being niave that thinking that having to respect and pray for an animal at slaughter (even if the slaughter is not pleasant) that they may well have good welfare standards? Most of the meat you get from TEsco comes from the EU and the standards don't meat the UK standards for living conditions.

OP posts:
Puzzledandpissedoff · 09/05/2014 11:13

Okay, so it seems generally agreed that everyone should have a choice about what they buy and eat. Some may feel they're silly, inconsistent, ill informed, etc, but it doesn't change the fact that people are still entitled to make their own legal choices

HOWEVER in some cases (including some supermarkets, fast food places, school meals, hospitals, etc) that choice is being denied

Without getting bogged down in the reasons for the choice, can anyone explain to me how its removal can possibly be right?

MelonadeAgain · 09/05/2014 11:20

You choose to ignore he fact that I advocate a total ban on non-stunning

That's not a fact, its a personal opinion

then aim wasting my breath on you tbh who bloody cares whether your ego is dented? How is that relevant to this discussion. You're also very arrogant, but your standard of argument doesn't match up to being very persuasive at the same time

FWIW I find you implausible because you have said a number if things that are innacurate and show a tendency to gloss over the truth. I don't belie e your figures or that stunning is done in halal slaughter as consistently and effectively as you and others with an agenda would lime to make out.

funnyossity · 09/05/2014 11:22

On animal welfare: is the supermarket meat and/or chain meat (pizza express) guaranteed to have been pre-stunned?

Puzzledandpissedoff · 09/05/2014 11:28

On animal welfare: is the supermarket meat and/or chain meat (pizza express) guaranteed to have been pre-stunned?

If you mean an absolute guarantee, then it would appear not; the variety of uncoordinated policies seem to make sure of that Confused

Mybellyisaneasteregg · 09/05/2014 11:30

I would be concerned about the issues of employing people according to their religion.

I'm not sure if this is relevant however. Are non-Muslims employed in the production of halal meat? Confused

I think it is wrong if people are losing their jobs etc if they are the 'wrong' religion.

Nomama · 09/05/2014 11:36

Melonade, I think the figures were from a link upthread and the fact that much Halal slaughter is done in 'normal' abattoirs.

The local one I have spoken about is family run, no muslim employees. They have a tape that they play over a proportion of the animals. The local muslim community is quite large and from many European and non European countries and their Inspectorate visits the abattoir almost as regularly as Defra (I was going to say MAFF then Smile). They only kill with pre-stun.

There nearest non stun abattoir is probably about 100 miles away, nearer a larger Jewish population.

There really is another side to the story and some of us you may consider to have an agenda are just annoyed with the media for spinning the whole issue so aggressively and unfairly.

littleducks · 09/05/2014 11:36

Non Muslims are employed in halal slaughterhouses, they often post on this threads explaining what they have seen. There is a woman working at a halal butchers near me, no idea about in a slaughterhouse though.... It is physically hard work though so I suppose it could be that they don't/not many do for those reasons.

I think that only Jewish people are employed producing kosher meat. As they have to be affiliated to a synagogue.

MrsAtticus · 09/05/2014 11:42

javotte, Muslims don't sacrifice animals to an idol, idols are forbidden in Islam, they sacrifice animals to God which is the same monotheistic God that Christians worship.

MelonadeAgain · 09/05/2014 11:43

O think the fact that there is a growing demand for guaranteed non halal meat and leading, highly experienced vets are demanding action, shows that the average consumer is increasingly unhappy with placatory, glib comments about halal slaughter.

Markets change and the current trend is toward more ethical business practices to serve the ethical consumer by more effective governance.

littleducks · 09/05/2014 12:02

The thing is lots of people are talking about not wanting halal meat but that doesn't always mean the will pay for it. The supermarkets are doing well flogging cheap meat, they clearly don't care as the whole horsemeat scandal illustrated.

Muslims who only want strictly halal meat go to halal only butchers where the details of the slaughterhouse are on certificates on the wall. They aren't eating the unmarked meat in the supermarket or chicken in PE .

If other consumers went elsewhere for meat because they wanted to know where their meat was slaughtered the the supermarkets would change their practices very fast.

Nomama · 09/05/2014 12:07

But Melonade, the placatory, glib comments are nothing of the sort. They are an explanation of what happens in many abattoirs that soe of us have seen, worked in, have knowledge of. Of course there will be others, ones we have less knowledge of. But to insist that all Halal meat is cruelly slaughtered and that anyone who says otherwise has an agenda is missing one of the points.... that is what the lazy media are propounding, along with others who most certainly do have an agenda (EDL, PETA, etc)

No one is arguing that effective governance is not a requirement, just that a better understanding of what actually is in place at the moment is required.

The consumer needs to be better educated before leaping on a media bandwagon. Especially one that could easily engender fear, hatred and divisiveness.

I have one question for you though, so I can be 100% clear what it is you mean by Halal meat. DO you mean meat that is not pre-stunned or meat that is pre-stunned and prayed over?

If the former, I can only repeat what others have said, it is not very common in the UK. Stats have been linked to and quoted and are relatively easy to find on t'interweb. The non-stunned numbers are relatively low! And much of it is not Halal, it is for the Jewish sector (which I cannot remember correctly / spell, much to my shame).

Puzzledandpissedoff · 09/05/2014 12:14

The non-stunned numbers are relatively low

That's absolutely true, Nomama; but so is the number of murders and nobody suggests we should do nothing about those

Don't get me wrong, I'm obviously not suggesting the two are comparable, only that the law should be impartial and seen to be such

Oh, and I'm still waiting for anyone to explain how it can be right for legal choices to be denied ... Wink

HomeHelpMeGawd · 09/05/2014 12:20

Puzzledandpissedoff
"Without getting bogged down in the reasons for the choice, can anyone explain to me how its removal can possibly be right?"

There are many choices related to you're being denied through lack of labelling, all of which significantly affect how much stress and harm the animals you eat will suffer:

  • journey distance pre-slaughter
  • abattoir type (small vs large, low throughput vs high throughput, Grandin-influenced design vs non-Grandin)
  • type of stun deployed
  • mis-stun rate (this information isn't even collected)
  • controls deployed to avoid abuse of the animals by abattoir employees, eg CCTV
  • and pre-stun or no pre-stun

But the only one you want info on is the last. Try this as a thought experiment: what if you had a choice between

  1. non-pre-stunned meat where the journey distance was short, the abattoir was small and low throughput and had a Grandin-influenced design, and there were significant controls deployed to avoid animal abuse
  2. pre-stunned meat where the journey was long, the abattoir was large and high throughput and the design was poor and stress-inducing, and there were no meaningful controls deployed

Would you still say the only determinant of which meat you eat would be the stun vs no stun issue? If so, is it really about animal welfare any more?

Puzzledandpissedoff · 09/05/2014 12:48

Some very valid points there, HomeHelp, but it's not quite true that I only want information on the stunning issue. I want assurance on good practice of all types, and luckily I can get it through initiatives such as Freedom Food, Farm Assured schemes, Red Tractor marks and so on. I can't pretend to be as concerned with animal rights as some, but I do like to see them treated decently ... and anyway, they taste so much better for it Wink

Granted none of those schemes are perfect - very little is - but at least they're a step in the right direction. Unfortunately there seems to be an impression that the stun/non-stun issue is made less clear, by the organisations I mentioned above among others, and for me that's where choice gets compromised

In all honesty I'd struggle to choose between the two final options you mentioned; they both seem equally horrible, which is why I'l try to stick to the properly-sourced stuff wherever I can

SelectAUserName · 09/05/2014 12:59

Most slaughter houses in the UK do a good job. It is difficult/impossible to slaughter an animal in a way that does not cause it stress. This is because slaughter almost always involves transport, a novel environment, new handlers, a need to stick to time parameters, an industrial system etc. However, in most slaughterhouses I would say that this stress does not tip over into suffering. Suffering is never acceptable and in my view there is no such thing as "un/necessary suffering" as no suffering is acceptable. There are many things that can be done to reduce stress and lots of people take the time to do them.

However, most humans, going into even a good slaughterhouse would be shocked and horrified. This is because most people are very far removed from the meat they eat actually being an animal, have no concept of what industrial agricultural practices look like, and instinctively recoil from them. I believe that if slaughter houses had glass walls the consumption of meat would fall. But that is not a fault of the slaughterhouse as such, it is the wilful ignorance of consumers.

However, there are a small minority of slaughterhouses which do not operate in a good way. Either 'legally' by having exemptions from stunning, or 'illegally' by poor practices.

The biggest factor in determining the experience of the animal at slaughter, is the quality of the slaughterman. It is possible for somewhere with an excellent system and facilities to give a bad experience, and it is possible for somewhere with a bad system and facilities to give a better experience than you might expect. However, somewhere with good facilities/system always has the potential to give a better experience, all other things being equal.

For this reason I believe all slaughterhouses should have CCTV installed. I believe there should be no loopholes to avoid stunning, and I believe that figures of mis-/failed stunning should be recorded so that action can be taken to reduce the instances and research even better methods.

Slaughter is a very small part of the life of a farm animal. People should be far more concerned about the overall life of an animal (including slaughter). We have an increasingly industrialised farming system in the UK and around the world. 70%+ of farm animals are raised in factory farms. Pork and poultry is more likely than not to have come from factory farming systems. That isn't to say lamb and beef don't have their issues, but in general they offer a much better quality of life for the animal. Most people would be horrified if they saw the inside of a factory farm, but again wilful ignorance plays a massive part.

Again, much comes down to the husbandry skills of the farmer, but an extensive system has much better welfare potential than an intensive one. Factory farming also has detrimental impacts on the planet and human health.

For this reason I believe that all meat and dairy should be labelled with method of production. I believe people should buy from a local source where there is a clear route from farm to fork. If that is not possible, they should buy British, and not buy pork or poultry unless it carries a label that ensures higher welfare.

Finally, I believe that the majority of people who read these stories in the DM and the Sun don't actually care enough about animal welfare to make the changes in lifestyle that responsible sourcing of food entails - they might pay lip service to it, but actually doing something that inconveniences them/costs more? Unlikely. They do like an opportunity to chunter about the Muslimisation of Britain though, and the editors and those pulling their strings know this perfectly well.

dawndonnaagain · 09/05/2014 13:06

On animal welfare: is the supermarket meat and/or chain meat (pizza express) guaranteed to have been pre-stunned?
According to yesterday's Guardian, then yes. I think I linked to it on the other thread.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 09/05/2014 13:13

I don't know about Pizza Express, Dawndonnaagain, but I'm sure I read something recently about non-stun getting through to the shelves with the "own brand" meats in supermarkets. There's also the point mentioned upthread about kosher slaughter, with meat unwanted by the kosher trade being sold to supermarkets

I'll try to find the article ...

softlysoftly · 09/05/2014 13:19

Melonade can you point me to my inaccuracies?

Only what you take for arrogance and "glib" comments are facts.

Unlike the Daily Hate Mail and EDL today which is I suspect your reading material of choice.

Good luck Nomama homehelp and select threads like these ultimately help educate those who are open minded.

It's worth mentioning that the stun/non stun issue is currently under European review so we are moving towards a resolution.

I hope that is a blanket ban on non stun but suspect we will hit far more backlash from those who keep Kosher than those who keep halal.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 09/05/2014 15:09

Reported comment by Dr Taj Hargey, Imam of the Oxford Islamic Congregation:

"This is covert religious extremism and creeping Islamic fundamentalism making its way into Britain by the back door. It is completely wrong that the food sensitivities of Britain’s Muslims - who amount to just 4.8 per cent of the population - should take precedence over the other 95 per cent"

Interesting .....

Kewcumber · 09/05/2014 16:37

I think Dr Taj Hargey has got it completely wrong - its not religious extremism, its commercial extremism. Its way easier to negotiate one set of meat with one supplier using pone set of purchase orders and invoicing etc etc.

I doubt the purchasing director of Pizza Express had Islmaic fundamentalism in mind when he/she decided that one source of meat was the way to go.

MrsBethel · 09/05/2014 16:50

This whole controversy is preposterous. It is easily solved:

  1. Minimum standards of slaughter, to apply equally to everyone, regardless of religion. The law should be blind to religion. The idea of any religion or belief system being discriminated against is appalling. The current system is discriminatory.

  2. Mandatory labelling so that customers can ascertain whether conditions meet the bare minimum, or are more humane.

softlysoftly · 09/05/2014 17:51

Puzzled I would disagree with the statement too, mainly because the Kosher faction are far more vehement about stunning before slaughter, just use New Zealand as an example where all halal is stunned yet the Jewish Community have managed to get exemption from stunning of chickens and are petitioning for exemption on lamb and cattle as well.

The fact is Kosher slaughter has been around for ages yet no one batted an eyelid. Halal slaughter becomes more prevalent albeit mostly stunned and there is a massive outcry, is that creeping fundamentalism or creeping anti islamic feeling?

Susyb30 · 09/05/2014 18:00

Reading this thread is actually making me queasy. .as linda McCartney once said "if slaughter houses were made of glass most of us would be vegetarian" how true. So interesting reading everyone's comments. .I really hope there is a ban on non stun slaughter soon. Animals should not have to suffer in this way..for the sake of religious beliefs, by all means have some prayers put over the tannoy for them..but to slit their throats and hang them upside down without stunning them is disgusting and should be stopped.

crescentmoon · 09/05/2014 18:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Nomama · 09/05/2014 18:47

Ooch, puzzled, that quote was out of the context in which I wrote it! I was referring to the oddly large reaction to a smaller than believed issue and the conflation with Jewish practice - softly restates what I meant a couple of posts up from this!

Also, non stun slaughter and murder? Well, non stun slaughter for specific religious reasons has UK and EU exemption, so it is not against the law.

Can I say again (now I have looked up how to spell it) that anyone who wishes to bang on about 'Halal meat' being horrific readjusts and send all of their questions / objections to Henry Grunwald, Chair of Shechita UK. He may be able to explain...

www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/10814564/All-meat-should-be-labelled-with-details-of-its-slaughter.html

Just remember he is also the man the RSPCA are discussing the issue with
www.rspca.org.uk/ImageLocator/LocateAsset?asset=document&assetId=1232719611043&mode=prd

Which issue bothers you all most, non stun or labelling? I ask ask, after the weird misinformation is overcome, these 2 issues are being discussed in tandem. Maybe that is confusing the issue.

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