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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think my friend has a good argument for refusing to attend this job interview?

205 replies

listsandbudgets · 29/04/2014 20:21

She's going anyway because even though she argued until she was in floods of tears, the job centre have told her that if she does not she'll have her benefits taken away.

She's strictly vegan and has been since her mid teens - she's now in her late 30s. She won't even wear leather shoes. They are sending her to be interviewed for a job in an abattoir Shock Normally I'd say if people can work they should but surely she's got a good argument for not going for this job?

What on earth can she do? Will she be sanctioned if she lets them know her views during the interview and does her best not to get the job?

OP posts:
NeedsAsockamnesty · 30/04/2014 13:42

Appeal very quickly

wowfudge · 30/04/2014 14:30

Boulevard yes she would have a right of appeal, but as Bitter has pointed out, she risks having her benefits stopped while it is sorted out. IMO the OP's friend needs to act now, before the interview date, and point out she has good cause not to attend and should take copies of the guidance, etc to support her case. But, we do not know what her claimant commitment states. I would have thought that as a committed vegan she would have said she wouldn't work in an abattoir, but maybe she didn't think of that when she signed on. The difficulty now may be in convincing the adviser that she isn't making up being a vegan to get out of an interview for a job which many would view as unpleasant anyway, never mind completely abhorrent as a vegetarian or vegan.

I will ask my contact what the claimant should do. I have offered the OP the option of PM'ing me for specific advice.

Blamenargles · 30/04/2014 15:18

I'm a meat eater and no way would I work at an Abattoir, I struggle to go in to butchers I hate raw meat.

I use to work near one and the stench in summer was unbelievable god knows what it was like inside.

I don't think she should be made to attend the interview, I also say that as a tax payer. She should try her hardest to get an interview herself before hand somewhere else to prove that she is trying to get a job

babybat · 30/04/2014 15:29

There's a big difference between working for an abattoir in an office role, or even working in a butcher, and working on the killing floor. I can fully understand that as a vegan she would have deeply held beliefs that would make working on the processing line impossible for her. She is absolutely not being unreasonable in not wanting to attend, and I think the DWP are being ridiculous in expecting her to.

BitterAndOnlySlightlyTwisted · 30/04/2014 15:40

Yes, the JobCentre are being ridiculous and very unfair but when it comes to avoiding a sanction people need to be very careful indeed. The advisor at the JC has already insisted she attends the interview after being made fully aware of the jobseeker's reservations. Reservations which I would find completely acceptable and comprehensible but we're not discussing reasonable people here but those who need to fill quotas for sanctions.

It's pretty certain after the discussion and the tears at the appointment that the advisor will be getting feedback from the employer to see whether this particular jobseeker has somehow discouraged the employer from making an offer. I can absolutely guarantee that this will happen.

PartialFancy · 30/04/2014 16:00

Given which, it's not impossible the JC clerk has set her up deliberately in the hope of scoring a sanction.

It'll make a change from sanctioning people for failing to attend a JC meeting... because they were at a job interview.

wowfudge · 30/04/2014 16:23

Pretty unlikely though Partial - it is against the guidance to send this jobseeker for this interview. The targets are to get people off benefits, not to sanction them. Do you really think that advisers would set out to deliberately do that to people?

Something has gone wrong somewhere - possibly in the claimant commitment - possibly from the claimant not stating that as a vegan she is not willing to work in an abattoir. It sounds as though the claimant's response was an emotional one; no surprise there as it's an emotive subject for her. If she had simply stated, "As a vegan I will not attend such an interview as the very nature of the place of work is against my beliefs." then I wonder if the adviser would have been so insistent? If I had been pushed on something I didn't agree with, I would have asked the adviser to show me the regulations which stated I had to attend the interview.

People make mistakes and it appears the adviser has made a mistake. Don't forget that advisers will be used to some claimants giving reasons/excuses for not attending interviews. If no mention had been made of the claimant being a vegan. it may have been construed as being an excuse rather than cause to refuse. We do not have the details of the conversation. Therefore Bitter you cannot state The advisor at the JC has already insisted she attends the interview after being made fully aware of the jobseeker's reservations. because we do not know exactly what was said. For example, did she say she is a vegan or just say she wouldn't/couldn't work in that environment.

TBH, I'm not sure if this is a genuine post.

wowfudge · 30/04/2014 16:26

Sorry OP - I don't mean to offend, it's just that the regulations and the guidance are so clear on the kind of situation you set out, it would appear there has been a huge mistake or misunderstanding. I've been wondering if you were canvassing opinion on whether people think it is okay for jobless vegans to refuse a job in an abattoir if it's their only option, IYSWIM. It's such an emotive subject.

PartialFancy · 30/04/2014 16:43

You missed the kerfuffle where JobCentres were found to have targets for sanctions, then, wowfudge?

Hang on, I'll find the links.

PartialFancy · 30/04/2014 16:55

Lots of denials by DWP top brass: lots of DWP whistleblowers saying they've been given targets for sanctions.

"Jobcentre was set targets for benefit sanctions", The Guardian
"A leaked email shows staff being warned by managers that they will be disciplined unless they increase the number of claimants referred to a tougher benefit regime."

Also
"Benefits stopped 'to meet targets', PCS union claims", BBC

And
"Jobcentre 'scorecard' shows how areas are performing on stopping benefits", The Guardian.
"At my last review I was told in no uncertain terms that I needed to start identifying more people to refer for sanctioning and, as my next review looms, I feel under pressure now to start picking on people, otherwise I will be put on a performance improvement plan."

NeedsAsockamnesty · 30/04/2014 17:02

A sanction = claimant no longer in receipt of benefits

PartialFancy · 30/04/2014 17:05

Nice one, including a video, where DWP whistleblower describes setting up people with learning difficulties to be sanctioned:

"Jobcentres 'tricking' people out of benefits to cut costs, says whistleblower", The Guardian.

LEMmingaround · 30/04/2014 17:06

this is bullshit surely?

wowfudge · 30/04/2014 17:07

Even so Partial the OP's friend's beliefs (veganism) clearly excuse her for cause from having to attend this interview. Therefore either 1) the adviser is making a mistake and misapplying the guidance or 2) the claimant hasn't clearly stated her belief and is being threatened with sanction for something else she has stated in her refusal/reluctance to attend the interview.

I have already stated I will seek advice for her.

PrincessBabyCat · 30/04/2014 17:08

I love eating meat, and I don't think I'd be able to do a job like that. Dead things make me squeamish. I prefer thinking of my meat magically appearing in the store wrapped in plastic.

Nosleeptillbedtime · 30/04/2014 17:12

Okay, admit have not read all posts here so sorry if repeating what others have said. But seems to me this is an equalities issue. Religious convictions would be respected and it does irk me that secular convictions are not equally respected in situations like these. ( no I am not anti religion) You friend would have to show that her beliefs do influence all of her life, and it seems they do. There was a case where a vegan was able to claim unfair dismissal on these grounds. Sorry can't remember the details.

wowfudge · 30/04/2014 17:12

NeedsAsock - a sanction is a penalty imposed when a claimant doesn't stick to the claimant commitment.

fascicle · 30/04/2014 17:22

listsandbudgets

If your friend hasn't already done so (and even if she's not a member), please get her to contact the Vegan Society. There's a lady there called Amanda Baker (Senior Advocacy and Policy Officer), who I think might be able to advise her (I found her very helpful last year in relation to a vegan/Equality Act issue).

www.vegansociety.com/

StepAwayFromTheEcclesCakes · 30/04/2014 17:27

Anyone genuinely helping would have found something else and used discretion. unless the friend is a whiney sort refusing everything offered and not fulfilling the 'rules' at other sessions, who clearly does not want a job at all the advisor in the job centre is clearly a superior feeling twat who is power crazed and nasty. there are a few of them in these places, there are also some really nice ones who do genuinely want to help. I had one who was almost apologetic at having to ask me to show evidence I was looking but having said that I was only there for 6 months and whoever upthread said they treat you differently if you come from a job and have lots of education, skills, and have been paid well previously is spot on, marked difference in how i was treated to how my DS was.

uselessidiot · 30/04/2014 17:31

wow you are coming across as very naive. I've known people be sanctioned for attending job interviews after JCP refused to change their sign on time to allow them to attend their interview (the employer wouldn't change the interview time either, she tried). At the same time as refusing to change her sign on time they informed her she'd also be sanctioned if she didn't attend the interview so she was in a lose lose situation. Someone else was sanctioned for not attending her meeting, she'd suffered a seizure whilst in the queue to see the advisor. My husband was told he'd be sanctioned for not trying hard enough at interview at a call centre if he was honest about being deaf. I could go on, I know of many more unfair sanctions. I'll ask you this though; do you feel the claimants in my examples were being irresponsible job seekers and do you feel that they deserved to be sanctioned.

PartialFancy · 30/04/2014 17:37

Yes, I'd like to see your question answered, uselessidiot.

(When are you going to change your username? I see you around and you're so not an idiot or useless...)

wowfudge · 30/04/2014 18:20

OP - your friend needs to ask to see a Decision Maker at her JC. She needs to clearly state she is a vegan and she may be asked to provide evidence: we do not know that the adviser evens knows she is a vegan.

I've tried to help the OP's friend because I have a contact at DWP whose advice I trust. I do not wish to become embroiled in a slanging match about claiming benefits, sanctions, etc. There are two sides to every story and sometimes we are need to read between the lines. Yes, there will be instances where someone will feel aggrieved, however there are set procedures for claimants to follow and they need to be followed.

BelleateSebastian · 30/04/2014 18:23

Just go for the interview, be polite, respectful but role up your sleeve and flash your big fuck off A.L.F tattoo ;)

Original poster
listsandbudgets · 30/04/2014 19:01

Horray.

She went. THEY asked her if she was alright with blood and dead animals and as soon as she explained her veganism they said she wasn't suitable for that job but they had another she may be interested in. She got it subject to her references checking out - its in the offices working as PA to a group of senior management which is exactly the type of job she wanted all along. She's starting next week. Apparently it had only just come up and they hadn't even got round to notifying the job centre but as soon as they saw her CV they thought she'd be perfect for it (10 years experience as a PA)

She's so glad she went now and they've promised her the only dead meat she'll see is in the canteen!

So so pleased its worked out for her

OP posts: