Builders' sexual harassment?

[TrueToYou]

I work for local council. My office base is in the library which is undergoing a massive facelift.
As I left the building, 3 Builders (private firm undertaking the work) were standing facing the entrance. As I passed, one said "three ways".
They all laughed long and hard. I didn't look up, just ignored and moved on, but the more I think about it, the angrier I am becoming.
I see the comment as them deciding how they would share me between them. I don't think there is any doubt about that, as the long hard raucous laughter confirmed it.
Now. What to do? I'm annoyed I reacted by fiddling with my id badge, head down, hurrying on, but I guess I knew immediately a confrontation would just lead to 3 against 1 denial and gas lighting.
I'm considering making a complaint, but do not have any idea what these guys look like, other than that they were the firm's hi vis jackets.
Wwyd?

They were way out of order , report them to whoever is in charge of the job.

I give in. I live in the real world where it doesn't matter how right you are. Being right doesn't necessarily get things done.

My message here was to be strong and certain and to nail the bastards, But how have I been interpreted - an apologist, part of the problem, telling women they are weak and on...

I can't help how I am perceived on t'internet, and really couldn't care much, but to have repeated messages of support (read me back) interpreted in such a nonsensical manner is laughable. I suppose I should have known better than to try and give real life, workable advice!

Nope. It means that, again you have misunderstood me. I have said that when women complain about neanderthal behaviour they should be sure not to be too nice or in anyway unprepared, or the neanderthal will use it as justification for patronising the little woman!

THEN you would be right, nothing would change.

My own opinion is that if women want to complain they should BUT should also take the time to understand and circumvent the cultural response that complaint will be open to.

Know your audience and attack them effectively.

That is ALL I have tried to say.

Does it make any more sense now?

Tone? Sorry, I didn't write it with that sort of tone... I read much the same into your posting voice but, as I don't know you and am not trying to pick an argument, have ignored it as being in my head not yours!

Having said that, you last post is a little bit more pointed, maybe deliberately provocative, But you really have chosen the wrong person, you have completely misunderstood me and read something into my 'character' that isn't there. A reflection of yourself maybe?

The 'again'? OK! But it was meant as 'on this thread', not you personally. You seem to have chosen to wear a cap that didn't necessarily fit.

I think its is ineffably sad that you and others have read my posts as saying women should be 'careful' about what they say, even to the point of using that against me in a personal manner, here. That interpretation is not what I believe, or have posted. It is an interpretation and, as such, reveals much about the reader.

I think that to have those thoughts is what is promulgating the 'little woman' syndrome. I simply do not think "oh dear, if I say that I will be laughed or ignored" I always think "if I say that I will give them pause for thought, they will hear me." As a person, not as a woman.

How else would anyone want to communicate?

I agree that women should speak up, should expect to be believed, should expect their personal testimony to be good enough evidence, and should expect and feel entitlement to justice.

OK! We do agree. I am hoping it is only some sort of semantic iffiness that is making it seem as though we are not!

I am quite militant about living in a non gendered environment - though that does sound so very, very poe faced I just mean that in my everyday life I don't want or have to see any gender difference between myself and any other colleague.

Outside of work I will speak up, forcefully, if confronted with such stupidity. And here is where we seem to be having a little difficulty....

I don't just speak. I think, reflect in what has worked before, maybe look for a witness, and then choose the person I wish to speak to.

My best effort was with a small group of men out in the early evening, all sober. One of them was being utterly crass, commenting on every woman that walked passed, giving them marks out of 10, etc.

I ignored him completely and walked up to the group and said loudly

"You do know just how stupid he is making you look, don't you?"

He stopped mid sentence, they all looked embarrassed, one of them agreed, very loudly, and they all left.

BUT I only managed that because I had been through it before and my protestations at that time only made it worse. Whatever I said made the fuckwit more certain I was being oh, so very female and that he was oh so very desirable and funny.

So when I say, don't leap in and complain, stop, think, collect more evidence, that is what I meant. Get to the heart of the matter. Don't remonstrate with the monkey, find the organ grinder and make him do his job!

Absolutely Buffy. Women need to feel that they can speak up, immediately, about this sort of behaviour. We all know that it goes on. It's possibly not as prolific now as it was twenty years ago but it is wrong and it intimidates women.

Nomama... Reading your later posts I understand the point you are making but it seems incongruous with what you are actually saying. You seem all in favour of 'nailing the bastards' yet you strongly counsel that women need to meet certain criteria in order to complain. If women followed your advice there would be very few complaints and that's not going to get this done.

I'm sorry that you felt that you're being described as an 'apologist', you clearly aren't one but in wording your posts as you do it seems that you see incontrovertible evidence as the way to get things done and others will just see it as inserting barriers, almost sabotage.

I've mentioned several times, as have other posters, that a direct complaint, even without evidence, often accomplishes the objective. I've never failed to get action taken. With the exception of one incident (that was assault, witnessed by a police officer), there have been no witnesses other than possibly partial ones who would stand up for the perpetrator anyway. It is difficult to find witnesses to this behaviour; very difficult. Insisting that somebody should do so means the complaint is unlikely to ever be made.

I would agree with you in all circumstances except for the one the OP posted. One where some daft twazzock feels free to make sexist comments.

Then only because such a man usually sees any female who is upset by his comments as being typically, well, female. Such an idiot requires more care and courtesy prior to being hoisted by his own petard. Mainly because in order to disabuse him of his idiotic notions he will need someone he actually respects to set him straight. No little woman is going to do that! Such a man has an ego that easily deletes anything said by any female, ignores anything said, requested, demanded. He sees us as pretty little things or scary lesbians - there is usually no inbetween, except maybe mums and sisters (their own, no one elses).

So I would stand by my advice to the OP in those circumstances. Not to get rock solid evidence in that circumstance would, in my opinion, be an act of self sabotage.

I think the way I see it is that were a Doctor, Dentist, Teacher, Police officer etc to abuse their position of trust, they'd be removed from that position and barred from returning.
Nowhere in a builders job description does it say that you're allowed to harass and make abusive remarks to members of the public. They should be taken from that position and not be given the opportunity to apply for anything similar. My concern is that they'd simply be moved on to another site. Where I work, it's considered gross misconduct leading to instant dismissal.

I spoke to my brand new manager in our first 1-1 yesterday about this incident, and my intention to make a complaint.
She gave me the name of the library manager to address my complaint to her. Then soothed my feelings by highlighting that at least I knew I "could have taken my pick"
I will be composing an email to council complaints when I get a moment, I work in the community and so am rarely at a desk, office or computers haven't done anything about it yet.
There is no way of getting evidence of their behaviour, but I do feel buoyed enough from the support I have had here and the fact that I know this DID happen and that it should NOT have, nor should it ever be repeated. I don't expect heads to roll, I just want the whole workforce (as I can't pinpoint the guilty parties) to be strongly reminded that this is harassment, will not be tolerated, and had better never be repeated for fear of instant dismissal.

Your manager said what???

The problem with that, neil, is that Doctor, Dentist, Teacher, Police officer all have licenses. As you say a builder could just move on.

It is usually gross misconduct on all sites. One near us has a sign on the outside wall with a number and email address for complaints. The local company explained in the local newspaper that they acknowledge it is hard to get to anyone on a site to complain. They also acknowledge that it can be very offputting and, where there is such behaviour, it can be difficult to get a complaint logged - the foreman, in many situations, being as bad as his workforce.

They don't have complaints though. One, very large sign is by the main site entrance so every man on site is reminded every morning.

I happen to know that this local company is currently being run by the great grand daughter of the founder

There has been so much change in the building world, this is not acceptable behaviour any more. But there are pockets of stupidity left. These are where the most boneheaded misogynist works, surrounded by like thinking friends, which can make the issue seem worse.

We could just ask the scientists to hurry up with designer sperm. Then we could simply eradicate the problem at root - kill off all men!

TrutoYou - that is what I meant. A calm take on the matter, find the right channel and go for it. If you need help with the wording I am sure we will all be happy to chip in

(As for having your pick - blech!)

Which one are you going to pick then TrueToYou ?
The one with his fat hairy arse cheeks hanging out of his jeans?
The casual racist with a copy of the Sun in his back pocket?
Or perhaps you could be tempted by the one reading Nuts magazine while he scratches his own and sniffs his fingers?.........................ah the agony of choice.

What? I have been rendered speechless at that interpretation, Buffy.

In context, the first page, OPs first post, with no other info.... not knowing for a few more posts the precise circumstance, and all that!

So, thanks for a good giggle, a bit of an argument and all, but that is too stupid an interpretation to continue with!

We really don't need men to do us a disservice, do we?

"We really don't need men to do us a disservice, do we?"
Did you really just type that?

If the OP had been a black schoolboy, and the circumstances exactly the same but the word said loudly had been "lynching", what would your advice be?

It doesn't matter what they look like. And the OP doesn't need to establish a watertight case. She just needs to complain to her bosses and let them handle it. Which she's done - well done, btw, OP.

These men will at the very least be told to button it. They may be moved. It's unlikely they'll be sacked, unless they've had similar complaints on other jobs which show a pattern, which is perfectly possible.

That's why it's a good idea to report every incident of this kind instead of creeping around gathering evidence like Nancy Drew.