to consider UKIP racist?

[fidelineish]

Tell me, please.

*there

The percentage of people who might end up on waiting lists longer because of not having parents/grandparents born locally are tiny (immigrants are hugely less likely to be in social housing than the native born).

I wonder how it works for my kids, half their parentage born in Britain but none of us truly local (DH family 100 miles away). Presumably when UKIP say local they mean truly local like born within 25 miles, perhaps. Again, this would make negligible difference to position on local waiting lists, most of us don't live within 25 miles of where our parents or grandparents were born.

softlysoftly I just googled it and it said that people having local grandparents would have priority. I have mixed feelings about this. If your children were in dire straights, their circumstances would confer priority in much the same way.

There's a lot of people who are living in social housing in very, very expensive areas of London right now who say that they are entitled to stay at subsidized rates in the face of huge market forces because they are local. It's not only UKIP who says this.

Amber, do you think that all policies need to be evaluated on the basis that they impact all races/ethnicities proportionately? I don't understand your reasoning

No, I think that any policy that will clearly affect one racial group over others, should have its agenda examined/questioned.

And no, I wasn't born here but my children were and it seems like the policy as you've described it would leave them (they're white) ineligible for social housing. Or does that not matter, because they're American?

It would leave them at the back of the queue with all the british born black and mixed race people, inc those who happen to have just one grandparent not born in the UK, the children and grandchildren of caribbean immigrants who volunteered to fight and defend this country from facism in WW2 and who also volunteered to relocate here from the caribbean to help rebuild Britain after the war. What a thank you to give the descendants of those people. 'Get to the back of the queue, you are not british enough'

Shouldn't it be purely on need and one's own personal circumstances, nothing to do with grandparents? Why should your children be second-class British citizens to my children, based on our parents?

Now distinguishing between natives & immigrants is pretty logical/normal when it comes to allocating scarce resources i.e. social housing. I'm not certain I agree with your grandparents having to be born in the country but it seems that no one can confirm this on the thread

But it isn't about immigrants vs natives.

I linked to the UKIP manifesto upthread.

softlysoftly I just googled it and it said that people having local grandparents would have priority

It says locally born parents and grandparents.

gosh, just thinking about the economic impacts of the "local parent priority" policy. Ppl move out of areas to get jobs. But suppose you need council housing; the incentive would be to move back to an area where your parents/grandies came from. This would create local heavy strain on particular councils in precisely those areas that could least afford it (lower tax base due to lower employment rates/lower business rates/depopulation trends). Would lead to some other distorted impacts, too.

Criticising UKIP policies is too much like shooting fish in a barrel, though (sigh).

Depends on the definition of 'local'.

This policy does not appear in their Local Manifesto.

It does appear in their Euro Manifesto.

That makes me think that the term 'local' means to the EU country in which your parents / grandparents were born.

So, in this case, local is actually shorthand for a country's domestic 'homegrown' population and a way of encompassing a diverse group of people of various ethnicities.

So you are happy for my children not to be defined as "homegrown" wet?

That makes me think that the term 'local' means to the EU country in which your parents / grandparents were born

What about those whos parents/grandparents were not born in an EU country?

So, in this case, local is actually shorthand for a country's domestic 'homegrown' population and a way of encompassing a diverse group of people of various ethnicities

But unless your parents and grandparents are also 'homegrown' [born 'locally'] then you go to the back of the queue.

I think it is clear what is meant by that policy.

Nope, you've not convinced me, AmberLeaf.
Do you believe that anti-immigrant = racist, always and incontrovertibly?

If citizenship is relevant, shouldn't it be the citizenship that an applicant has themselves? Why the hell should we have tiers of citizenship, based on hereditary lines they have no control over? Shall we reintroduce people being born into serfdom next?

I see no motivation to focus on grandparents, other than to say, "efforts to integrate are unimportant. You are descended from furriners and that defines you".

I don't Holiday, I am for controlled skilled immigration not an open door policy.

But that's not what they are just about is it?

That one policy as written says my kids are not "British" enough to be treated equally, how the fuck can you justify voting for that?

Tell my 4 year old to her innocent face why she isn't British enough can you? Why some tenuous link to a country she's never even heard of makes her less of a member of this community.

Not convinced you of what exactly?

If your parents/grandparents were not born in the UK, they cannot be classed as having been born locally.

The words 'born locally' refering to a UK housing policy, mean that any british citizen whos parents/grandparents were born in another country, would not have priority.

That is not about immigration. Because those affected by it, are not immigrants.

wouldn't immigrants be the most affected? I sure would be one of the very most affected.

They haven't defined "local"; the policy hasn't been fleshed out. But even if it means born in the UK, 1st-3rd gen immigrant communities have to be most affected, no?

You are attributing non facts to this debate softly.

Nowhere has it been mentioned that Black or ethnic people are excluded on the reason of colour.

The term local is a definition used by UKIP to describe UK nationals in a UK country....I find absolutely nothing wrong in making sure that UK nationals are satisfactorily homed before non UK nationals.

This isn't racism/Xenophobia or any other excuse it's just common sense and practical.

ah, but it wouldn't prioritise all UK nationals, Caruthers. I am now a subject of HRM but I lack UK-born parents/grands. There might be... I dunno... A few million like me? UKIP really haven't fleshed it out (I don't object to anyone calling them half-brained).

Folk like the Romanians/Poles are a different category, because not yet citizens or motivated to pay out money to become such.

Dc are interesting because they have one UK-born side & one foreign-born side.

wouldn't immigrants be the most affected? I sure would be one of the very most affected

I am talking about the british citizens, who were born in this country, who will be affected by that policy because their parents and grandparents were immigrants.

They haven't defined "local"; the policy hasn't been fleshed out. But even if it means born in the UK, 1st-3rd gen immigrant communities have to be most affected, no?

That is what I am saying, but those affected are NOT immigrants, they are descendants of immigrants.

That policy introduce levels of citizenship.

The term local is a definition used by UKIP to describe UK nationals in a UK country....I find absolutely nothing wrong in making sure that UK nationals are satisfactorily homed before non UK nationals

This proposed policy does relate to UK NATIONALS though, just uk nationals who happen to descend from non uk nationals. Their parents/grandparents being born elsewhere means they aren't quite uk national enough.

Is that common sense or practical?

Fact is, the non white communities in the UK will be disproportionately affected by that policy.

Read the policy FFS it says priority based on PARENTS AND GRANDPARENTS being born here. I never mentioned colour. I haven't even said what colour my kids are they might be Caucasian.

That policy says my children aren't considered British enough to be equal. They aren't immigrants they and their father were neither born in or have lived in another country neither have I. So how is that an immigration policy? It's based on their distant racial heritage. It's inherently racist.

It's written on the manifesto Amber linked to in black and white, how is that a non fact?

Prioritising services for local people
We must end benefit and health tourism and give priority to local people for housing, education, health and social services. In planning, the local people's opinions should be respected and not overruled^

UKIPs manifesto for 2014 contains this. And it's quite obvious what local means in this context.

Any other interpretation of what this means is disingenuous.

UKIP want us out of Europe and it's fairly obvious that UKIP as a govt would be UK centric not as some posters would have us believe on this thread that UKIP would be race centric.

Which is nonsense.

neither my father nor his parents where born here ...

so that's me and my kids stuffed should i ever be in need

(we're saying a lot of same things, Amber)

I see the logic where you're coming from, and it has worked in law before (remember Birmingham's dinner ladies vs. the bin men salaries). But I must admit i felt uncomfortable with that ruling, and would not surprise me if that ruling only happened because of EU legislation which is precisely what UKIP would chuck out anyway. Other UKIP policies are quite pro-discrimination & anti-protected groups in general. They don't like maternity pay, for instance. But I don't see that bias as racist, either, they just don't like the State meddling in individual rights to dislike.

Where would Michael Portillo stand? He'd be back of the housing queue too, I guess. And Michael Howard. Nigel Lawson would be on dodgy grounds because at least one of his grandparents wasn't born in UK.

UKIPs manifesto for 2014 contains this. And it's quite obvious what local means in this context

Yes it is, it first mentions benefit and health tourism [ie foreigners]. Then goes on to talk about priority for local people [UK born citizens]

Right now as we speak and breath there are families being split up because the parents are of foreign origin and the children born in this country have UK nationality.

Again people are deported and petitions made because people think it's unfair.

Our govts wage war on foreign soil which should be a bigger issue than it really is.

And still the doom and gloomers without proof spout the racist claptrap as always in relation to UKIP.

Where would Michael Portillo stand? He'd be back of the housing queue too, I guess. And Michael Howard. Nigel Lawson would be on dodgy grounds because at least one of his grandparents wasn't born in UK

Like that policy would ever affect people like them.

Can't see any of them ever needing social housing.