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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To want autonomy over my body.

999 replies

thebodydoestricks · 23/04/2014 16:12

Aibu here. I am 50 but apparently still fertile.

I have 4 children already and do not want any more.

According to some posters if I fell pregnant but hadn't used at least 2 methods of contraception I should be denied the abortion I would most definatly want.

I would have to go before a panel of judges in a court to plead my case. They would judge whether I should have an abortion or not.

Of course if there was a back log of cases then I would have to wait and if it reached 24 weeks it would be too late anyway.

I would be forced to give birth.

Aibu to be absolutely stunned at this posters view in Britain 2014?

OP posts:
CaptChaos · 24/04/2014 10:14

lovesardines and Moominsarescary yes, Josie Cunningham.

What she is doing is not illegal, and yet, she is being told in no uncertain terms, by the general public, what a terrible person she is. I get that she's not a poster girl for abstinence, I get that she might not be everyone's cup of tea, but she's not breaking the law.

It seems that the Fail has succeeded in generating a heated debate about abortion from it.

Northernexile · 24/04/2014 10:17

baby, thanks for replying. I am pg myself, and would be interested to find out more about these new rules for that reason, and also because I work for a political party here and tend to pick up on most of these things, but this has totally passed me by. The AG is very hard line from what I have heard.

I will be thinking about you today. I am from England and it really upsets me what some women have to go through here. It's barbaric.

thebodydoestricks · 24/04/2014 10:19

^^ well of course it's 2 issues isn't it.

The one is the autonomy of a woman over her body pregnant or not so abortion should be available in demand at any stage.

The second is practical. Who on earth is going to look after all these children born to womem who don't want to give birth for many reasons all of which are up to them and no one else's business.

One forced birthers here said they can be adopted!!! Hilarious, the care system would collapse.

Who on earth is going to deal with the hundreds of womem injured/dead by the inevitable ride in back street abortions.

One forced birther said i don't agree with back street abortions well who the fuck does? It would become a hideous cottage industry as in the past.

We must ensure the abortion time limit instead of being cut is raised to term, in my view,

But everyone should have a choice.

OP posts:
LayMeDown · 24/04/2014 10:22

Can I ask posters who support abortion to term what this means in practice?
Up to 24 weeks it is clear cut. An abortion is performed, the foetus is not viable so does not survive, but after that point what happens? If hypothetically a woman decided to abort at say 37 weeks then those advocating 100% choice, what happens in those circumstances? I assume the position is the woman has a right to choose to end the pregnancy. Even if we agree with this, at this point the pregnancy can be ended without ending the life of the unborn. Is the suggestion that the heart should be stopped before delivery? Or that the woman be induced and the child placed in care? I am genuinely interested to know what abortion to term means in practice?

AnyaKnowIt · 24/04/2014 10:22

With Josie Cunningham what people have failed to notice is that channel 5 are discriminating against her for being pregnant.

AnyaKnowIt · 24/04/2014 10:26

If a woman chose to abort at 37 weeks I would assume that it would be carried out the same way as a late term abortion would.

SpanishLady · 24/04/2014 10:27

I wasn't going to post as feel both camps have become so obstinate in their views what would be the point of attracting attacks on myself but I have read the other thread which was actually about judging a friend found to have an abortion and now this one and am slightly repulsed by the mudslinging on that thread and some misrepresentation on this thread of the first thread.

I don't feel the need to be compartmentalised by any side as to what I am or should be called eg pro life or pro choice etc because terminating pregnancy isn't a black and white thing and thank fuck for that - it should be emotive, difficult and taken seriously by which I mean the discussion/consideration of it not the actual access to a termination.

I find it sad that in 2014 in a first world country we still have the situation where women get pregnant without choosing to and therefore having to make this decision about continuing with a pregancy or terminating it but then I grapple with why some people have kids only to treat them like shit or in some cases horrifically abuse them - I don't have the answer, I doubt anyone does but Christ it sucks.

I have not had a termination myself nor been in a position of having to consider one - I have 3 kids - so I haven't walked in those shoes and it is this plus the abhorrence for me of thinking of girls/women being in such fear of the consequences of having a child that their lives are threatened by backstreet abortionists that are the cornerstones of why I support the safe and open offer of abortion on demand within the law.

However, to refer to the thread that preceded this one - I do judge women who have had terminations. Not children who get pregnant, not rape victims, not those who have to for medical reasons or those who decide for whatever reason they want ( circumstance, career, relationship, money, DV etc) - but I judge any woman who doesn't then think to herself at the very least "well that was unpleasant/inconvenient situation" and ensures to her utmost ability never to have to put herself through it again.

I judge women who use it as birth control ( thankfully feel this is few in the big scheme of it but I do know a few in my RL) and I judge women who do not seem, to me anyway, to assume the responsibility not to have to put themselves and those around them in the same situation again by absolutely everything within their control.

In the other thread someone ( am sure they will be along to say their piece shortly which is of course fair enough) mentioned a friend who had had 6 terminations despite using double contraception. Simply put I don't understand this. Even after the 2nd/3rd time wouldn't she and her partner have agreed that their way of preventing pregnancy was obviously not working for them and look for another solution? I know someone myself who has had 5, I just don't get why an otherwise smart, witty, beautiful successful woman didn't take more steps to protect herself.

This leads me to this thread as my thoughts on the OP's question is that yes I believe she should have autonomy over her own body like the women cited above but not always with impunity sometimes the right to make a decision for yourself should come with thought, respect and consideration of the consequences and I think a duty of care to minimise the chance of history repeating itself.

I guess that is my struggle with abortion - I want people to feel some respect and care about what they are doing.

But to be clear by this I don't mean women in sack cloths and ashes, feeling ashamed and guilty - what good is that? I feel only sympathy they had to make the decision and would not want some poor woman being haunted by it - what is done is done.

OP, if you don't mind my asking, have you considered having your tubes tied or your partner having the snip? You are emphatic that you don't want more kids and want autonomy over yourself so empower yourself then and take whatever steps required to control this part of your life. I may be mis understanding you but it reads to me as if you are saying ' I could still get pregnant, I 100% don't want this! but it's ok if I do because I have the right to an abortion' my argument is why take the risk of seeing if you do get unlucky? Why be in the position at all? Why is abortion easier then a vasectomy?

LayMeDown · 24/04/2014 10:27

And how is that Anya. I'm not being obtuse, I genuinely don't know.

Dawndonnaagain · 24/04/2014 10:30

I am genuinely interested to know what abortion to term means in practice?
It means having a choice. It means autonomy. I, like many others, would suggest that if all is well with the pregnancy and a woman suddenly chose to abort, there would be much discussion about the mental health of the woman. As for the rest, go read baby's story.

FryOneFatManic · 24/04/2014 10:31

In 2011, 146 abortions were carried out after 24 weeks, according to the stats I saw.

I really can't see that there would be a massive increase in this if the limit was raised to term instead of 24 weeks.

AnyaKnowIt · 24/04/2014 10:32

However, to refer to the thread that preceded this one - I do judge women who have had terminations. Not children who get pregnant, not rape victims, not those who have to for medical reasons or those who decide for whatever reason they want ( circumstance, career, relationship, money, DV etc) - but I judge any woman who doesn't then think to herself at the very least "well that was unpleasant/inconvenient situation" and ensures to her utmost ability never to have to put herself through it again.

Oh yes, those dirty sluts hope they fucking suffer! Hmm

FreudiansSlipper · 24/04/2014 10:37

so a women has to have a valid enough reason for you to be able to respect her decision to abort

how about she does not want to share her reason with anyone as it is no one else's business what happens to her body

CaptChaos · 24/04/2014 10:39

Anya Given the slant that the Fail et al have put on the story, the facts, such as C5 discriminated against a woman for being pregnant, so she is choosing to deal with that in a way that a fair few have had to in the past has fallen by the wayside.

That she had a 'boob job' on the NHS is constantly mentioned as well, without the qualifier that she has a genetic condition which meant she failed to develop breast tissue.

It all has the 'bread and circuses' stench to it really.

LoveSardines · 24/04/2014 10:39

I have not heard of josie cunningham but why would being pregnant preclude her from appearing on big brother? I don't get it. Would she be due when it's going out or something?

People are talking about the cost of looking after all the children in care etc if abortion was banned. Let's not forget the additional enormous costs to the health service of providing all that ante-natal and post-natal care, mental health services, more HV etc etc etc - maternity wards are under the cosh as it is. There would also be a huge cost to the economy in terms of women having time out for appts and of course mat leave / pat leave, and loss to the economy through having a large part of the workforce not progressing as they might. There is the toll of ongoing problems as a consequence of birth which would cost in terms of medical treatment and loss of working days. That in turn would set back women's rights in employment equal pay etc. And thinking about it, many businesses say they would think twice about hiring a woman of child-bearing age, if abortion was illegal that would get much worse. It'd set us back decades probably.

Sounds like a great idea all round!!!

AnyaKnowIt · 24/04/2014 10:40

Its back to that court again isn't it FreudansSlipper

CaptChaos · 24/04/2014 10:42

Laymedown If you are interested, Marrie Stopes has an excellent leaflet about how abortions are performed.

FreudiansSlipper · 24/04/2014 10:42

this attitude annoys me more than pro lifers (though have no problem with pro lifers who do not judge other i know of a few, not many)

AnyaKnowIt · 24/04/2014 10:43

Don't read the fail, not good for my blood pressure.

Binkyresurrected · 24/04/2014 10:44

How about the cost of fixing the damage caused by the backstreet abortions that WILL happen if a woman's rights to abort are removed.

AnyaKnowIt · 24/04/2014 10:44

Thank you CaptChaos, was looking for a link.

CaptChaos · 24/04/2014 10:46

LoveSardines I have not heard of josie cunningham but why would being pregnant preclude her from appearing on big brother? I don't get it. Would she be due when it's going out or something?

God alone knows! It makes no sense to me.

LoveSardines · 24/04/2014 10:49

The only reason I can think if she was going to be due while in the house, if someone couldn't commit to the whole X weeks that would make sense I guess.

If it's not being filmed when she's due only when she's pregnant then it doesn't make sense at all.

SpanishLady · 24/04/2014 10:53

Anya - I don't see how you get to sluts from my post please don't put words in my mouth. Ask me.

For the record (and to save you the bother)

I don't consider the sexual life/ history of a woman to be relevant to this - or my business generally.

Dawndonnaagain · 24/04/2014 10:53

but I judge any woman who doesn't then think to herself at the very least "well that was unpleasant/inconvenient situation" and ensures to her utmost ability never to have to put herself through it again
On occasion contraception fails, no matter how hard you've worked to get it right, it fucks up. Oh, and vasectomies are not 100% either. Hmm

LayMeDown · 24/04/2014 10:54

Dawn thanks for your response. However it is not an answer to the question I was asking and I think you know that. I have read baby's story and my question was no in relation to her circumstances it was in relation to a healthy baby which would survive outside the womb.
My question is would a termination of pregnancy at 37 weeks entail the ending of the unborn's life and if so why? If a woman had the choice to end her pregnancy then her bodily autonomy is intact. Why would her choice extend to whether the baby should live or not if that doesn't impact her autonomy?