to think that howling at people that they are racist is not...

[fidelineish]

..the best way to challenge their thinking or change their views?

It crops up on here frequently and it is only going to become more frequent as UKIP campaigning steps up.

Caruthers you skipped the part where you explain away how allowing Christian not muslim refugees in isn't racist?

Seeing as though you asked i'll reply.

It's a fair assumption that Christians are getting a rough deal from Muslim Syrians in Syria as pointed out by the BBC.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-26366197

Allowing Syrian Christians into Britain because of this is right and good.

Now tell me where I can find a racist UKIP policy? so we can all share in this imagined outrage at a party that doesn't lean far left enough to warrant recognition.

Have already explained 'local' softly - upthread.

I agree, a Muslim will almost certainly define themselves primarily as a Muslim and part of the umma.

Disregarding that your argument is semantics of language.

So when I point out that Islam is a religion and not a race that's semantics? That's fucking hilarious!

which is hardly a thing to gloat about tiggy!

Nothing to do with UKIP, but I've noticed a tendency on mumsnet to scream racism when you mention race at all. e.g. "my friend is Chinese" - racist!!! "Norwegians tend to be reserved" - racist!!! Anything marginally negative about Scots e.g. the economy on the Scottish independence threads - racist!!!

it would be easier if they stopped deleting stuff off their site. It's amazing how my bookmarks keep leading to "this page was not found" statuses

Yes.

I recall a thread on here a while back, where, during debate with some UKIPrs, I was quoting from the UKIP site the appalling policy on segregate communities for people with learning disabilities. Within a very short time, the error 404/page not found came up if you clicked the link to that page.

My (mixed race) family and I are often quite shocked by the speed with which the racist card is played in the UK to stifle debate

Yes. That has also been a problem in terms of public debate

Calling it 'playing the race card' when someone points out that something is racist is a big problem in terms of public debate.

The term 'playing the race card' is one of many silencing tactics.

My mixed race family and I are never shocked when people do this.

OP, as MrsDevere has said, you can patiently explain all day long, but some people just don't want to understand. Big difference between ignorance and wilfull ignorance, the latter is when it is fitting to just say 'you are a racist'

So Muslims aren't getting wholesale murdered in Syria too then?

Because otherwise what's the justification for us allowing only Christian refugees?

And Wet yes semantics I should have used xenophobic. Both are bigoted. On the other thread you are merrily denying their xenophobia too whilst here there is a case displaying it.

You dance around fact almost as well as Farage himself. All writing deniable all actions pinpointing an attitude bigoted in many many ways.

Don't vote UKIP, will never vote UKIP

I agree with the OP that reasoned debate is better to discuss racist views as it also educates those reading

I also completely agree if people keep on with their racist vitriol that they should be told they are racist (or at least hold racist views)

softly really confused about the racism part of taking Syrian Christians and not Muslims. Surely it would be racist to not take Syrians? Sorry, I've obviously missed something

softly just seen your post but I still don't get it, please don't worry about repeating yourself if you've already explained it! I'm just being a bit thick

So Muslims aren't getting wholesale murdered in Syria too then?

Not by Christians they're not.

Or don't you agree with the BBC's way of reporting incidents against Christians in Syria?

Here's a quote from the BBC.

The statement said the group had met Christian representatives and offered them three choices - they could convert to Islam, accept ISIS' conditions, or reject their control and risk being killed.

That's religious persecution isn't it?

Again can you point me to a racist UKIP policy please?

It's not bigoted to have a genuine fear. It's not even phobic if that fear is genuine. It's not even a fear because it is a reality - a given.

I merely pointed out that the term for fear of foreigners is xenophobic - not racist.

Oh and Caruthers I'm not left I'd rather chew my arm off than vote labour. I believe that Europe has too strong a control though in fact face this every day in myjob.

I believe immigration has to have its limits.

I believe the welfare system needs an overhaul.

But I won't sell my soul to vote for the polite face of facism who has homophobia, sexism, racism and xenophobia at its very core just to achieve those things and think those who do should be ashamed.

Rolls eyes at the term "Polite face of fascism" and the hyperbole and drama.

Religious persecution is grounds for granting asylum.

Rufus that's ok I should have said that it is bigoted to say you will accept a person based on one religion and nit the other. Race is not technically the right term.

Caruthers so muslims from Syria have nothing to fear because its not Christians killing them? They have no need for refugee status?

are Christians seen as a threat to our society no, are Muslims and lets face it most have brown skin yes

people can see through racism it does not always have to be obvious and name calling, the them and us, the dividing of people. many of us have witnessed and sadly some on here have been victims of racial discrimination and hate. when it is done underhand it can be harder to deal with as it is difficult to confront these people intelligent people can read between the lines if they want to

Religious persecution is grounds for granting asylum.

Some on here just don't see that Wet!

Obviously to some that is dependent on which religion is persecuting which religion.

In this case Farage has stated that Christians in Syria are facing substantial religious persecution and still some people are in denial somewhat.

But this denial suits an argument they have no matter how baseless that argument is even though I have given ample opportunity for anyone to post a racist UKIP policy.

Caruthers so muslims from Syria have nothing to fear because its not Christians killing them? They have no need for refugee status?

Religious persecution is the key here not civil war.

People suffering religious persecution should be granted asylum if they wish.

Don't you agree?

Ok this is pointless to are happy to vote for a party based on what they write not what they say and do. You are happy to deny the many examples of bigoted behaviour.

Anything I say won't change that so I won't waste any more time on you. I'll just hope to god you remain the minority so that my children and my in laws and my non British staff aren't fucked in the future by the same blindness that slipped the Nazis in.

And if you decry that as hyperbole fine but live 1 day with a mixed race and faith family and you can feel the fear that the BNP and UKIP and parties like them engender.

softly

Thanks, I think my brain has switched off today,

limitedperiodonly

I very much doubt Bob Crow would have voted for UKIP or stood for them. He was a dedicated trade unionist. UKIP are right-wing in terms of workers' rights.

"Well, you may have heard of our “The Truth about UKIP” campaign, where we are telling a few home truths about what UKIP really stands for:

They want to abolish maternity leave in small firms.
They want to scrap the European employment right to paid holidays and breaks in the working day.
They believe those on permanent contracts should be paid less because they get greater employment protection.
They want to introduce a flat tax rate – a tax cut for the richest, a tax rise for everyone else.
All of these policies were contained in their 2010 manifesto. Yet since we started highlighting them just before Christmas, UKIP has mysteriously taken the document off their website. Nigel Farage has now also publicly disowned the manifesto, saying he “didn’t put it together”. What utter nonsense – the rules of political gravity apply to UKIP the same as any other party. It was the UKIP manifesto. It was their platform for government. Is he seriously suggesting he didn’t support his own Party’s manifesto?"

labourlist.org/2014/02/the-truth-about-ukip/

softlysoftly My family is a mixed race family you don't own that exclusively.

You have shown nothing to counteract my claims that UKIP are not a racist party.

I said hyperbole and it stands.

This shallow level od debate bores me. It's little more than a dance around before someone shouts 'racist' and they all pile in.

Syria is all about religious persecution. Not just the persecution of Christians but the persecution of Muslim by Muslim.

Personally, I'd stay well away from the whole fuck up.