who was unreasonable , wheelchair uses , other mum with pushchair or me.

[mummywithsmiles]

Took daughter on bus today she is 14 weeks old and on oxygen ,the oxygen cannister is in the basket under pushchair.

when i got on there was already one pushchair.. I parked next to her.

2 stops later a man with a wheel chair got on.

bus driver asked if i could put pushchair down which i explained why i couldn't. Anyway other mum with toddler in pushchair refused to move and put hers down. I was then asked to get off the bus as wheelchairs have piority. I refused as the other women claimed she was on the bus first. In the end i got of the bus , she put hers down and wheelchair user got his place.

It is and always should be about greatest need and being in a wheelchair does not always automatically equate to greatest need.

Don't be ridiculous.

Someone with severe lung or heart disease has more 'need' than some wheelchair users, but do they actually need a space?

We don't know why the man was using a wheelchair, having a leg in plaster does not always mean broken leg.

What do you want people to do? Play disability top trumps?

Wheelchair user gets priority.n That is what the space is for, not for a buggy or shopping on wheeled suitcases.

A space for a wheelchair is an attempt to give someone equal rights, a space for a buggy is a convenience, a privilege.

That is true, sashh, but it is a the grey area of sn buggies and buggies like the op's (ie a standard buggy, but one used with a disabled child and carrying bulky medical equipment) that is the problem.

the law now states that wheelchair users have priority over the space, which is good, but it would seem that sn buggies/buggies ised as wheelchairs, are not afforded the same right, and that is what i am querying.

The space for this buggy isn't a convenience though sashh It's the only way the op can move her baby around with her breathing and feeding kit.

As someone who has 3 kids with Sn that are not necessarily visible to the uneducated eye, I think it's quite simple- you qualified for the wheelchair spot.

Sadly, many people, and I guess some bus drivers will be amongst it, are not really educated on disability.

I will happily use the disabled spot for ds4, who has autism and hypermobility, if there is not suitable seat available (can sit on normal seat but HAS to be sat next to me or panics). I would not use it if there was an option. if we all use a similar mindset, problems will be rare. Take only what you need.

As it was you were in a position to walk home so was the wheelchair user to be honest (in a sense of being pushed home). I've had to push my DM home in her Wheelchair many a time in the middle of winter with my two DCs in tow too from a hospital appointment because quite frankly I was too knackered to have to explain/argue the toss to a bus packed full of Christmas shoppers why she needed the space. Of course the baby (who needed her oxygen tank changing!) Was priority. OP I hope you've made that phone call to the bus company. I'm not going to comment on the pushchair lady's wired baby comment I hope she is infested with a thousand camel fleas and her arms grow too short to scratch.

( most disabled kids I know btw start in buggies, then move to adapted large buggies: wheelchairs only come later, therefore it can;t be just wheelchair or you'd be actually reserving the space in most cases for disabled people over 7 or 8...)

Plus, many disability buggies are issued by wheelchair services- if you are going to take the black and white 'a wheelchair is this' route you are going to end up in a mess.

The law is that the space is for wheelchairs, Peachy, you may think that's unfair but that is the law. It is not a disabled space is is a wheelchair space.

Further legislation in parliament would be necessary to make it anything else.

You are, however, required by law to ensure that the designated wheelchair space is made available if a customer wishes to board with a wheelchair (or, if no wheelchair user is travelling, a disabled buggy or approved mobility scooter)

The law states that there is a hierarchy of use - and disabled buggies only have a right to the space if there is no wheelchair user travelling.

This to me is wrong, because as far as I can see a disability buggy is a wheelchair. But I am still awaiting clarification from the bus companies disability manager.

Actually morgause I am not in England (another part) and they are labelled disabled.

And Maclaren Majors and the like are issued by Wheelchair Services, so qualify as wheelchairs in my book. I am blessed not to be in need of one of these and use a bus so rarely it's not an issue for me, but am sufficiently educated in disability personally and professionally that I recognise that your definition of a wheelchair is far narrower than it actually is in practice.

It's not my definition, it's the law's definition.

Peachy you would be wrong to refuse to move for a wheelchair if you and your child were in the space. You should ask the people sitting in the priority seats to move for you rather than blocking access for other disabled bus users.

The ability or lack of ability to walk home doesn't seem important in my opinion, yes a pushchair with a disabled child in or a sn pushchair will have an adult probably able to push it home but if you use that logic then electronic wheelchairs wouldn't get priority.

That makes it right?

I know kids who are unable to walk, have severe LD and potentially life limiting conditions who use a Maclaren Major.

Besides, a wheelchair is legally defined as 'A wheelchair is a manually operated or power-driven device designed primarily for use by an individual with a mobility disability for the main purpose of indoor, or of both indoor and outdoor, locomotion. '

So, large disability buggies and buggies used to move disabled children ARE covered. In law.

The relevant question is whether the person in the chair is disabled. If so, they are entitled to the space.

ikea I have never refused to move for a chair and never would, however I should point out that here in Wales there ARE no wheelchair seats, there are seats for disabled people, seats for wheelchairs; the disabled space is sometimes read as wheelchair but in those spaces DS4 would be entitled to remain, the wheelchair space no.

There are also dedicated buggy spaces.

but absolutely I would have to move. As ds4 isn't safe to walk home (pain and behaviour), it means we use the DLA to run a car.

I suppose the main difference between a SN buggy and a wheelchair is the size of the occupant.

if both wheelchair and SN buggy are being used by a person with a physical disability who is unable to walk, it would usually be easier for the occupant of the SN buggy to be taken out than the wheelchair user- a SN buggy requires an adult to push whereas a wheelchair user may be on their own so no extra support, and a SN buggy user is going to be under 7/8 and the accompanying adult would be capable of lifting/supporting the user to transfer to a bus seat. So I can see why there would be a generic preference for the wheelchair user to remain in their chair, and the SN buggy user to be taken out.

however this only applies if the SN buggy user has a physical disability that affects their ability to walk. It doesn't take into account things like the user may be unable to sit safely on a standard bus seat (eg low muscle tone). Or that they may have other disabilities that mean the buggy is the safest place for them to travel.

So I think that generally if an SN buggy user is on board and a wheelchair user wishes to get on, the parent should be asked if it would be possible for the buggy user to sit on a standard seat to allow the wheelchair to board. however if the parent says it's not possible, that should be respected and whoever is on first has priority.

It would also be nice if someone has to disembark, either their full fare should be refunded, or they should be issued with a ticket to enable them to catch a bus from where they disembarked to their destination, so they are not out of pocket. This may make more people willing to disembark voluntarily and make things a little easier for wheelchair users.

I think i may just avoid the issue and never leave the house.

Peachy - that is why I am querying the 'disabled buggy' part of the quote from the regulations. As far as I can see, a disabled buggy is a wheelchair, but in the regulations it states that a wheelchair takes priority over a disabled buggy (which, to me is a bit like saying a car takes priority over an automobile - because they are both wheelchairs!)

Chronically, if I took my ds out of his buggy, the buggy would still have to occupy the space as it doesn't fold. So it would be pointless to take him out of the buggy.

In the op's case,it would be madness to take a 14 week old chronically ill baby and an oxygen tank out and expect to sit safely.

Just an aside from the points made on here, has anyone noticed that prams on buses are getting bigger? When I had my first baby you had to fold your pushchair on the bus there was no other option. People who used the bus often bought small easily folded buggies for this purpose. Now you don't have to fold unless a wheelchair needs to get on and the predominant style of pushchair on buses here is the enormous 2 piece fold big wheel style thing that takes up the space of 2

I bought a newborn stroller for that reason it was smaller and lighter i have the tank and nebulisers at the bottom. And there's a big pocket bag at the bag which i fill with meds and feeding stiff then i attach her portable sats machine by the handle bard ... It was pretty obvious she wasn't a well baby.

Mummy, you've done everything humanly possible to make you and your baby able to travel on a bus.

The other woman shouldn't have argued. She should have folded/disembarked straight away. The wheelchair user should have waited for the next bus as the space was already taken - even just out of fucking courtesy.

And I strongly believe that massive fucking prams should not be allowed on buses. Slim doubles - yes. But if you have a baby and intend to use buses then you should use your brain and get a small pushchair. I use buses a lot. I've seen some absolute monstrosities squeezed into the buggy space (our buses have wheelchair and buggy spaces), that block the aisles and make it very dangerous when people less steady on their feet try to get off. It's just utterly selfish.

Hazey- of course i wouldn't expect the OP to take her baby out! I was answering the debate about SN buggies v wheelchairs. As i mentioned, i can see why someone might be asked but the Op's case, all she should have to do is say 'sorry but that's not possible' and she should (in my ideal world) be allowed to stay on.

And about not all sn buggies folding, that did occur to me, but if your buses are the same as the ones where I live, there are 3 seats that fold up to allow wheelchair/buggy access, the wheelchair has to go with the back against a backrest, but if your child was not in their SN buggy it could occupy one of the other spaces and leave the specific wheelchair space free. Or be pushed up against the front row of seats- you could fit it in a tighter space if there wasn't a child in it.

Or has been said to parents on these sorts of threads before, why have you got a buggy that doesn't fold? Why can't you get a mac major instead? (Just in case it doesn't come across in writing, I am taking the piss here, you don't have to justify your buggy to me!)

OP your baby should have got priority. I have 2 disabled children, DS2 in a wheelchair and DS4 in a standard buggy. DS4 is less able to move than DS2. He should be in a SN buggy really to make him more comfortable but I would find that impossible to manage on the bus so we make do. DS2 can't walk very far so needs the wheelchair to get to most places but he can get out and sit in a seat on the bus while I fold his wheelchair. He does need to sit down though, he wouldn't be able to stand upright on a moving bus.

I think there should be an overhaul of the system with coloured badges so that there is no arguments, with badges that can be issued by any dr.

For example:

Orange badge - for people who can't fold and need to get to appointments etc quickly or who have to get home to sort out oxygen or whose health/condition would get worse if they have to wait.

Purple badge - for people who can't fold but are able to wait for the next bus

Green badge - for people who can fold but it's difficult eg people who are wheelchair users but are able to walk short distances, mums who have disabilities that make folding the buggy difficult.

Yellow badge - temporary badge that needs to be renewed every 6 weeks for mums who have had C-sections, mums of twins, people with broken legs, mums with PND etc.

That way if someone with a yellow badge and someone with a green badge are on the bus and someone with an orange badge gets on then the person with the yellow badge must fold or get off. That way there is no "but I've got newborn triplets" and "but my child's got autism" types of arguments and nobody has to tell a whole bus load of people about their medical issues.

CrohnicallyChanging Maclaren major buggies are similar to standard buggies but bigger so are only suitable for children with certain disabilities. Some children who use SN buggies need extra support as they can't sit up on their own for long periods. These buggies tend to be unfoldable and the size of a small tank. My DS2 had one when he was 2 because he needed the support even though he fitted in his standard buggy. In the end we stopped using it as we could never get on the bus with it and the bus drivers wouldn't treat it like a wheelchair.

There is a picture on my profile of ds in his buggy - tbh I don't think it would take up any less room with him out of it than in.