To think disabled people should have exactly the same facilities as non-disabled people?

[Sparklysilversequins]

My children and I belong to Virgin Active. We swim a lot, both kids really enjoy it and it's the one thing they will both do without fuss, exercise wise. Both have ASD, a boy, 11 and a girl, 7. Now here's the problem, ds cannot manage to shower and get dressed alone but at age 11, he cannot accompany me to the women's changing room. The disabled facilities are not great, they are not nearly as nice as the other changing facilities, the shower actually has a toilet in the same room, so it's essentially a shower in a public toilet. Last time we went a cleaner was moaning about all the water on the floor after we had showered. This would never happen in the other changing areas. I've complained and was listened to but nothing has changed.

So today I decided that I would shower ds in the women's shower area and then send him to get dressed only in the disabled changing room (it's fine for that, just nasty for showering). We did this and it worked well though I wasn't comfortable with him getting dressed alone, but I dd and I changed like lightening and went and helped him (takes him a lot longer). So all in all it was fine.

But I am not happy about it. Their disabled facilities are simply not good enough, obviously I have found a way round it but I shouldn't have to should I? we should have the same lovely facilities that everyone else has?

So what would you do? Is there any independent organisation who inspects this kind of thing? I actually laid awake worrying about this last night but like I say luckily my new system worked albeit my son with ASD has to be unsupervised for it to do so, which I don't think is right.

Hmmm, tricky one. I imagine the disabled facilities were designed primarily with wheelchair users in mind and, for them, I imagine the closer the shower is to the toilet the better it is?

But then, in a gym, there are probably going to be more customers with ASD than in a wheelchair. In your situation it does sound like it is new and improved family changing that is needed rather than changing the disabled perhaps.

I go to a virgin active gym and I can't think of any disabled facilities at all! Maybe I just haven't noticed them though. However, I am also at a sort of gym right now (Pineapple Dance Studios) and there is no way that many disabled people could even get inside the building let alone get changed or join in any classes. So YADNBU in general, disabled people shou
ld be able to access things as other people can.

Brian I have the same problem with disabled toilets, some places put a disabled cubicle in each of the men's and women's toilets - where exactly am I meant to take my 21 yo son?

Hmmm, tricky one. I imagine the disabled facilities were designed primarily with wheelchair users in mind and, for them, I imagine the closer the shower is to the toilet the better it is?

But then, in a gym, there are probably going to be more customers with ASD than in a wheelchair. In your situation it does sound like it is new and improved family changing that is needed rather than changing the disabled perhaps.

I go to a virgin active gym and I can't think of any disabled facilities at all! Maybe I just haven't noticed them though. However, I am also at a sort of gym right now (Pineapple Dance Studios) and there is no way that many disabled people could even get inside the building let alone get changed or join in any classes. So YADNBU in general, disabled people shou
ld be able to access things as other people can.

The gym I go to (no swimming pool) had a disabled toilet and shower installed when it was built. It is used as a store cupboard - so no one who wanted to use it could get to it. They also have 2 disabled parking spaces - they are usually occupied by gym instructor's the owner's cars. It is purely a box ticking/comply with building regs exercise for most organisations. And yes, people with disabilities do go to the gym.

It is time that architects/designers looked at the practical use of such facilities rather than just meeting minimum requirements. For example, if architects had to push a wheelchair around some of the buildings they design they would get a much clearer picture of need.

I have 2 council run swimming pools within 5 miles of my home but had to travel to one further away when DS turned 8 as he could no longer use the female changing rooms with me and neither pool had disabled facilities. He was able to get himself dried and dressed but would not have coped with making sure he put all his clothes safely in a locker. The pool we went to, although it had separate changing facilities, had a mixed sex locker room, so I was able to meet DS in there and make sure he had all his belongings with him and that he got his towel out of the locker first after swimming rather than getting all his clothes soaking wet.

Perhaps Trifle meant find another gym as in vote with your feet and give your money to a gym that has better facilities?

I have given up with the disabled changing rooms in my swimming pool - they use it as a fudging storage room!

They're not allowed to use it as a store room. I'd be reporting.

Trifle may have meant that, but the comment as it stands was not helpful as it was left wide open to any interpretation.

OP, when you speak to them about a better long term solution, is there a possibility there might be a staff changing room they could open to you in the short term?

A lot of problems would be solved by making all facilities open to all sexes. I really don't understand why women can't go to the toilet in the same toilet area as men, we can all go in cubicles. The same applies to changing rooms.

A lot of buildings are designed really badly. I have a bad back and won't lift my 5 and 7 year olds. There are often places where they can't reach the taps on sinks and even more where they can't reach the soap dispenser. Then people wonder why there are so many d&v bugs around The world is designed by able bodied men for able bodied men.

This makes me grateful for my local council run swimming pools/gyms.

Village style changing rooms, with larger family cubicles plus individual changing rooms. So an adult of either gender can accompany their child/adult needing additional help without needing to use the wheelchair accessible facilities.

Then there are specific accessible cubicles, which although the toilet and shower are in the room together, the rooms are large enough that the water from the shower is mainly contained in that area iykwim. I looked in one of the cubicles (nosey!) and there is a hospital style bed so if someone needs to be laid down to change they can do so in comfort, plus a wheelchair is provided, presumably to take the person to the pool/shower if they cannot walk independently, so their own chair doesn't get wet. There are lockers in the main changing village, different heights and sizes are available so you can use whichever suits.

One of the swimming pools has a permanent electric hoist in place to get people in and out of the pool.

The only complaint I have is rather petty, I used the pool shortly after a specific session for disabled people, and the floor was rather dirty. Presumably the dirt was tracked in on wheelchairs. It occurred to me that while they ask people to remove shoes/put on shoe covers before entering the changing rooms, there is no equivalent for people in wheelchairs. And with the floor often being damp, it encourages dried on mud etc to come off the wheels and onto the floor. I'm not quite sure what could be done though? Other than just ensuring there is a clean scheduled at those times.

This is not specific to swimming pools as our local is quite good in that they also have the open village style so anyone can go in anywhere but I do find generally speaking disabled facilities are not up to as good a standard as non disabled. More often than not when I use the disabled loos (as it's the only toilet I can find ds2's SN pushchair in) they stink of piss and have water/something all over the floor, cracked tiles, loo roll holder broken or falling off the wall etc - they are there but just not maintained to the same degree as the more frequented toilets. Also hate it when the changing table thing is above the toilet, makes it so much more difficult to change a wriggly 6yr old who's pushing 25kg :/

You pay a hefty membership to join a private gym yet the facilities don't meet your requirements so why are you going there?

Many public amenities offer services more suited to your requirements so have you checked them out as an alternative.

I never really understand why people have to shower after a swim. It's not essential so why don't you just go home and save the hassle.

My children have autism. They have friends at this club, a change would cause a huge about of stress and anxiety. They are comfortable there. We like to shower after we swim as do many non-disabled people and the point is they can do so in comfort and really lovely surroundings but we cannot because two of us happen to have autism. It's not right.

Our local council gym/pool is undergoing massive refurbishment and has been closed for a year. When it reopens I will take a look and see if the dc can tolerate a move.

No, you're entirely reasonable in wanting the same level of provision for disabled people as for non-disabled people. Having said that, quite a few people need shower + wc nearby. I think myself that is reasonable, just put the loo seat down. The whole place should be kept clean though!

As a note, there are some excellent design standards for accessible changing faciliites/showers/wcs out there.

One of the best for a long time was the Gateshead Access Panel's book Designing to Enable. It was the gold standard for a long time because they balanced the needs of various different disabled people. Getting the right balance is quite an art.

I don't know if they're still going or if the same standards are available free on the net nowadays.

At a slightly lower standard the governmental building regs (part M for accessibility issues) are also good.

Design is only half the issue. Useability is the other half; moaning cleaners becuase shock someone actually used the facilities is jsut not on. In fact, I think that you might have a bit of a problem with an 11 year old boy even showering in the women's areas if someone decided to kick up a fuss.

I think your best bet is to speak to the management again and point out your problem and ask if there is a solution. If you don't get any joy, see if there is a reasonable disability organisation in the area who can advocate on your behalf. There is strong legislation now for ensuring good provision for all people, disabled or non-disabled, and you might be in a strong position for asking for improved facilities. it's worth checking

As a note again, these standards and procedures such as making sure the accessible facilities are as clean as the other facilities, are actually covered under law.

Main problem is getting companies to actually keep to these standards :/

And would it be rocket science to ask disabled people what their needs are when designing facilities????? The equality act includes a duty to plan ahead and anticipate how a disabled person's needs could be met.

I never really understand why people have to shower after a swim. It's not essential so why don't you just go home and save the hassle.

Maybe they aren't going straight home? Maybe showering prevents dry skin conditions from flaring up as they would if they leave chlorine on their skin? Maybe they fancy a shower? The point is not whether you think anyone should be able to shower, but that if it is a facility they offer to those without disabilities, they should consider how to extend that to those who do.

typical mumsnet persnickety about saying you need the same facilities as everyone else i understood what you meant and i agree a shower next to a toilet is in the same room you shower in YUCK! public toilets are nasty i would not wish to shower by one what about when people miss? your showering in piss YANBU they should do better

dealy I don't quite get your post.

Firstly, my shower at home is in the same room as my toilet, as many others' are. Yet no one finds that disgusting.

Secondly, if someone misses the toilet their piss will still be fairly close to the loo. Even if the shower is in the same room, I'm not going to be standing right next to the loo while I shower, as the shower head won't be right over the toilet!

Thirdly, any stray piss will be on the floor, not coming out of the shower head. So even if I got piss on me, it would be washed off by the nice clean water I'm showering in.

Fourthly, how many people will have weed directly in the showers? I almost guarantee that every shower cubicle at the leisure centre will have been weed in at some point- even if it's by a baby or child. Not to mention the wee in the swimming pool! And don't you think having a toilet in the same room as the shower would reduce the number if people weeing in it, since there's little extra effort involved?

The shower isn't in a cubicle. You shower and the water just runs all over the toilet floor, there's a drain obviously but it's not particularly efficient. You basically go into the corner of the room and switch the shower on, then you get dressed by the toilet hoping that your children don't drop any clothes on the flooded floor. And yes whatever "drips" may be on the floor will be floating around in that water till it drains away, which as I said, takes a good while. It's NOT pleasant in there, it smells and it's NOT up to the same standards as the other changing areas, not by a long shot.

It's exactly what Deaky imagines it to be hence my posting about it at all.

I think I understand a bit more. I was imagining something slightly different- along the lines of the combined shower/toilet rooms used in hospital. No shower curtain/cubicle, but with toilet in one corner and shower in another (and a third corner with a sink and hooks/shelves for clothes), a drain that works, and a slope to the floor meaning that water from the shower is contained to the corner. Obviously there was some splashing- but the room was big enough (maybe 12 feet square) that none or very little of the shower splash reached the toilet or sink.

So I don't have an objection to the idea of a combined shower toilet room, but in the OP's instance it does sound badly executed!

I meant I used in hospital- not sure whether they're used in all hospitals or just the one I was in.

But that's the thing, maybe I am asking for a bit too much but I am guessing that most disabled people don't want hospital like provision. As discussed earlier it's not actually even necessary for most, larger family rooms and cubicles that they can access are surely the answer? It seems to me that Virgin Active have ticked all the boxes without actually giving a hoot about what people actually need. Their disabled provision is suitable for some kinds of disability and even then it's functional at best but not at all pleasant to use and completely ignores others such as autism.

I've decided what I am doing anyway, I am going to write a nice long letter full of suggestions to Richard Branson then hold out till the council pool has been redone and then if my children can adjust move to there.

I understand your issues but I think yabu. I know disabled users may prefer to have the shower and toilet in one room. So you're asking for another format for the disabled facilities, which suit others well? It may be that another local swimming pool has shower facilities that would better suit you, I understand you like your Virgin swimming pool but presumably they have always had their facilities laid out in this way and it's not changed since you joined?