AIBU to suggest The Grand National should be banned..it's abuse

[AnnieMaybe]

Watching the channel 4 programme 'how to get a Grand National Winner'

The whole thing is nothing but animal abuse for monetary gain

It should be stopped/banned

Select I do take your point in reply to mine but if we follow that line of reasoning do we condone hare coursing, badger baiting or dog fighting provided the animal had a good life? We have to draw a line somewhere.

I think some people seem to be of the rather skewed and misinformed opinion that the purpose of a day's racing is to kill as many horses as possible.

The purpose of a day's racing is to celebrate the fastest horses and the best jockeyship. The ideal outcome for everyone who goes racing is to watch exciting sport and see all the participants come back safe and sound.

There is a risk, and the stakeholders within racing are actively working to minimise that risk, but it will never be completely eliminated. Horses die from freak accidents in the field, from heart attacks anywhere, so there will be some inevitable deaths. But no one celebrates those deaths, or enjoys them, or gets any kind of "fun" out of them.

It amuses and frustrates me in equal measure that every time there is a dog lover v dog hater thread, as soon as a dog lover says or implies that their dog is more important to them than another human (e.g. someone else's child) they are, not unreasonably, treated as though they have confessed to sacrificing babies at a Black Mass. But once a year, without fail, you get the "horses are just as important as people" mob briefly raising their heads above the parapet.

And as for "no-one who truly cared for animal welfare would have anything to do with it" - that is utter bullshit. It's precisely because so many racing fans and participants are concerned with animal welfare that racing is so carefully regulated and scrutinised, that a percentage of every pound bet in a betting shop goes towards animal health research and rare breed preservation, that the modifications already discussed at length have been made.

Yes, racing is a multi-million-pound industry - it brings in over £270 million in tax every year. But that is not automatically mutually exclusive with striving for continuous improvements in equine welfare.

It's notable that those who have posted in support of racing have posted facts while many (not all) of those opposed to it have had to resort to the usual hysterical, hyperbolic emotional and inaccurate rhetoric.

Yes I think it would be unreasonable to ban the Grand National.

It is risky, and horses die - which is sad. But many things are risky.

The horses that die will have had a cosseted life and a quick end - it is not cruelty. And those that say we should not have a sport that 'maims animals for fun' are completely missing the point. Nobody who supports racing wants horses to be injured or die. It is a risk, but the enjoyment of the sport is absolutely not in the death of the horse. Cock fighting or dog fighting are sports which revel in death and pain and they're completely different. The aim in racing is never to harm an animal.

Most racehorses - successful ones at least - enjoy their job. You can force a horse to some extent, but not to the extent that it will try its heart out for you if it hates what it is doing. For people that know horses, it is very clear when they don't like something.

I hate to see racehorses die, but I can't bring myself to think of it as a problem in the context of so many animals bred for meat and reared in poor conditions. The most ironic are people who protest fearsomely about the Grand National, but who will happily chow down on chicken raised intensively that will have had a thoroughly miserable existence for all of the 6 weeks it was alive before slaughter.

The racing industry is far from perfect, but few things in life are, and most things worth having come with an element of risk. It's a shame that all the crusaders on the Grand National don't put as much effort into campaigning for better conditions for farm animals, or preventing the crazy overbreeding of cats and dogs that leads to so many in adoption centres.

Ascoyne There is nothing quick, respectful or humane about badger baiting or dog fighting - the baiting and the fighting cause the animals prolonged and unnecessary suffering, regardless of how pampered they were beforehand. (I don't know enough about the mechanics of hare coursing to feel qualified to comment on that activity.) Racing doesn't cause prolonged or unnecessary suffering. The horse runs its race - the vast majority finish their race unscathed and go back to their stable. The worst that happens to them is a brief spell of tiredness, which is hardly unnatural or cruel. The unfortunate minority sustain an unsurvivable injury and are either killed outright, so obviously instant and therefore without any suffering, or are dispatched within minutes by a trained vet. They are simply not comparable activities.

Horses enjoy racing?

Who is anyone here to say what horses do and don't enjoy? Would you apply the same logic to a group of humans from the same country? Could I say, all English people enjoy drinking booze and smoking fags, so let's lock them all up and make them do it professionally? No, so why should the same logic apply to horses? Nobody here is a horse, so nobody has the right to say what they do, and do not, enjoy. If horses like racing so much, then why don't they do it naturally in the wild?

Also, I don't see what having a 'good life' has to do with anything. So anyone, or anything, that has had a 'good life' is fair game to be cruelly killed?

Yanbu. It's cruel and unnecessary. Who wants to watch animals get whipped to within an inch of their lives, some of whom will fall at a jump and get shot. Entertainment eh

Horses do race naturally in the wild. None of them wants to come last and get eaten by the big critter with the pointy teeth.

I'm not a dog, but I can tell you fairly confidently that my dog enjoys going for a walk, enjoys chasing his retriever roll, enjoys exploring new places with interesting smells but doesn't enjoy going to the vets or hearing fireworks. And he's far from a unique representative of the canine population in those respects.

It's called understanding animal psychology. It's based on years of observation, an interest in and knowledge about animal behaviour. Same goes for people who spend their lives around horses.

Some horses enjoy racing, as we would understand the concept of 'enjoy'. Some react on instinct, as they have been bred specifically to run and gallop for hundreds of years - and allowing an animal to express its instinct is a positive thing; that's why animal lovers are against zoos, and battery chickens, and sow crates etc etc, because they prevent the animal from expressing its instinct. Some don't enjoy it, and believe me you cannot make half a ton of horse do anything it really doesn't want to do.

"why don't they do it naturally in the wild?"

Errr...sometimes they do.

I used to work in racing industry.

I can tell you these FACTS.

Hundreds and hundreds of horses are injured and lose their lives due to injury or accident every year.

Many horses who dont make the grade also either lose their lives or get used for other purposes.

There are many many many more racehorses than are needed.

Racehorses are now so overbred that their hearts don't have the strength to cope with the exertion that their bodies are under. Hearts will literally explode. When a horse collapses and dies on the track this is what has probably happened.

Thoroughbred horses are one of the most expensive and difficult breed of horses to care for.

The National is considerably more dangerous than any other race.

Racing can be a dangerous sport.

HOWEVER . some of the hideous practices in show jumping, dressage (rollkur) are equally, if not more cruel.

It is a dangerous and slightly barbaric sport. Other disciplines have different level of skills required so seem less barbaric. But are they really?

I personally find the National upsetting but as I am not vegetarian I dont think I have a place to criticize.

If you are prepared to eat factory farmed meat then really there is no weight behind the opinion that racing is cruel.

Who wants to watch animals get whipped to within an inch of their lives, some of whom will fall at a jump and get shot

Um there are rules about how often a horse can be touched at all by a whip during the course of a race, most of what you see is "fanning" i.e. waving the whip alongside the horse without touching it, and much of that is done to keep the horse straight - I used to rest my whip alongside my horses shoulder as she had a tendency to drift that way if I didn't. If a horse is beaten the way you describe so emotively, it would dump the rider unceremoniously into the dirt.

The phrase "some of whom will" implies this happens to a number of horses every year. With a total of 52 since 1839, 3 of which injured themselves by falling as they continued after their jockey had fallen off, suggests that again your phrasing is a little emotive.

It is absolutely disgusting, all horse racing it. So is Crufts.

Shall we have a MN sweepstake or have I missed the point of this thread? It's about the Grand National right?

If horses like racing so much, then why don't they do it naturally in the wild?

They do. I've watched mine playing in the field and it involves galloping around, biting, kicking, rearing, bucking...One of mine got quite nasty bites on his back a couple of weeks ago but it was all through play. He gallops down the field to me for fun. So yes, they do dick around for the lols, I'm sure of it.

I really don't understand the annual froth about this. Surely, as global animal welfare priorities go, it must be well into the second page?

I also don't actually think eating meat is different to horse racing at a moral level (and I say that as a meat eater). You can get a nutritionally adequate diet by being vegetarian, so eating meat is as much a necessity as watching a horse race- i.e. it's not. I bet half the frothers like to chow down on a nice bacon sandwich made from crate reared pork. In terms of hours of suffering, there's probably more animal cruelty in 6 rashers of Danepak than in the history of the GN.

There are certainly worse examples of cruelty to animals, many of them associated with meat production.

Nonetheless, my instinct is that people who do nasty stuff to animals for fun are deeply suspect, & should be discouraged.

If the GN didn't exist, I doubt very much that anyone who invented it would be given a green light - it's an unpleasant hangover from a bygone age, & 'well, it's not as cruel as battery chickens' is a crap argument in its favour.

Who is doing "nasty stuff to animals for fun"? Not racing folk. They're trying to establish by means of competition which horse is fastest, not stubbing cigarettes out on their skin.

But gosh yes, all that top quality feed, that carefully planned exercise regime, those big ventilated stables, that comfortable bedding, those twice (at least) daily checks, that bond between them and their regular groom, all that daily contact with their fellow horses, that prompt veterinary attention if they're unwell or unsound...that must just be so nasty for them...

Ah yes, all those lovely treats & fluffy duvets, provided by kindly 'racing folk' for reasons entirely incidental to the many millions of pounds generated by racing! & how important it is for them to discover which horse is fastest; it's quite startling how the rest of us sleep at night without fretting about that.

Look, I don't think horse racing's where I'd start if I were out to eliminate cruelty to animals in the UK. There's far worse, as the GN apologists keep pointing out.

But that doesn't make the GN any the less unpleasant in my eyes. Some people will choose to watch it &/or to bet on it. I choose not to, & I'd be very pleased to see it consigned to history.

I've noticed something about this thread - the posters who are anti the GN tend (note I said tend, not all!) to use the most emotive phrasing and words they can, whereas in general those who are not anti aren't using emotive words and phrases.

Examples are "whipped to an inch of their lives", "tortured", "killed for fun", "doing nasty stuff to animals for fun". Most of these very strongly imply that any pain & suffering is the INTENT of horse racing, and that they are the bits that people watch for and not the racing itself.

YANBU. It's a stupid race and it's shoved down everyone's throats once a year, so of course there will be threads everywhere now.

However, all the posters saying that you can't be against the GN if you eat meat etc; what a silly, juvenile attempt at an argument ! I could argue that because you're in favour of the GN, you also support dog-fighting, veal crates, bear baiting and killing rhinos for their horns, and that argument really would be just as valid as yours, but I understand that humans are nuanced and complicated and, because they see in shades of grey, they may dislike one thing but not mind or care about another similar issue. Surely the fact that they dislike cruelty in one situation is good enough? Also, if you go down the route of saying there are worse things done to animals - do you really think that someone shouldn't worry about a neighbour kicking their dog when bears are farmed for their bile, for example?

No one has the time or inclination to care about every single issue, so if you care about something, no matter how small others think it is (and who says they're right that it's a small thing anyway?) that is good enough. Let's face it; it's better to concentrate your personal resources and energy on trying to change one thing at a time rather than trying to change everything at once .

And I've been a vegetarian for almost 25 years now, by the way, not that it matters.

Nope, not the same as these things

• dog fighting and bear baiting - the torture and death is the point
• veal crates - animal has crap life 24/7 and cannot express normal behaviour
• killing rhinos for horn - would be OK if they were very common and killed humanely (not sure this is possible though)

NH racing is totally different

I didn't say they were the same things. I was pointing out the absurdity of saying you can only be against the GN if you don't eat meat or wear leather and using that as an illustration.

Given that most people who watch the National do so hoping that no horses die this this year, is enough to tell me that the risks are large enough to warrant that fear.

Go and do the maths, Google is your friend. Look up the numbers of starters and the number of deaths and serious accidents. It's a far higher ratio than is acceptable, it's horrifying.

Lumping The National in with other races dilutes the fact that this one gives a very high probability that the horse will die as a consequence. That can't be right?

Oh, and as for ex race horses, the leisure industry is flooded with them. Many have psychological problems due to how they are managed, many develop serious health issues very early on and breakdown because the horses are still babies when started and the stress in their underdeveloped bodies affects them in later life. Many others are shot.

Id like to think that I'm capable of independent thought Uptheairymountain. As opposed to an annual bout of self serving hystrionics.

I do wonder where these supposed animal lovers go the rest of the year. They could be so useful if they could support a ban on halal slaughter and more expensive humanely reared meat and chicken.

Off out on a ride now with my friend, whose ex racehorse was given some basic dressage schooling before being rehomed by the trainer advertising in the local newspaper. Hes a moderate beast and was a hurdler, and the yard not a top one, but hes had so much better an upbringing and has so.much better manners than many of the horses on the yard belonging to amateur riders.

And Joysmum Google is not my friend. The mucking out tools and horse knowledge are. I too slightly dread fast races like the Grand National, but people with hardly any knowledge presented in an emotive way, ignoring far more serious issues of animal welfare, are not the way forward. Personally i think a slightly smaller field, higher first few fences back to original height and encouraging jockeys to go slower on the first lap would assist more in practical terms. Oh, and encouraging and retaining a market for traditionally bred NH horses with staying and jumping pedigrees.

God not this again. YABU, its the same old shit trotted out year after year on mumsnet by people who appear to understand little about racing or horses.
I have never in my entire life heard anyone say anything negative about the National. Its the greatest sporting event this country has to offer enjoyed by millions upon millions across the world. If you don't like it, don't watch it and let the rest of us enjoy it.