AIBU to suggest The Grand National should be banned..it's abuse

[AnnieMaybe]

Watching the channel 4 programme 'how to get a Grand National Winner'

The whole thing is nothing but animal abuse for monetary gain

It should be stopped/banned

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

YABU. Steeplechasers are bred for the purpose and, if anything, it's the jockeys that are most likely to get injured. Every year riderless horses romp home while the jockeys limp away nursing a few bruises. Steeplechasing may be a risky game but, when they're not racing, the animals are lavished with care and attention.

[Sparrowlegs248]

Its vile. Every year there is a sweepstake at work. Every year some idiot bounces over to me grinning, do you want to put a pound on? I say 'no, thank you' which doesn't clear or polite enough. 'oh i thought you liked horses?!' yes i do. Thats exactly why i'm not betting. They go on and on until my politeness is used up.

There are too many horses in it, the course is too long, the jumps are too big. Some of the horses in it clearly aren't up to the job but they keep trying because they are, in their mind, running to keep up with the herd. And their jockeys are urging them on.

Racehorses are bred fpr speed, yet their bodies often can't stand up to the pressure. Hence broken legs just from galloping. Its disgusting.

[Melonade]

Lets ban halal slaughter first, so animals aren't conscious for up to 2 minutes after having their throats slit, screaming in terror.

I must admit i think the GN field is too big and they go too fast. Its not just the Grand National, its Cheltenham too.

I don't agree that the size of the fences are a problem. Bigger fences tend to slow horses down and encourage them to jump more carefully. Can anyone tell me if there's are more deaths if horses in recent years than in the past?

If you think paddock fences are as much as 4 feet high and that horses don't like jumping, you are very mistaken. At most livery yards ive been at, you would be lucky if the fencing was 3 feet high. And i, like a lot of people, am proud possessor of a horse that jumps out for fun. Not the fence, but the 5 feet high gates. He can jump a lot higher than that, as an friend's horses. He was doing it up to 3 times a day and just going back to the yard. Now he has to go in a special paddock with 7 feet high electrified fencing, and i still see him eyeing it up. The yard owner has also seen him going over jumps when loose in the field.

For some horses, jumping is like bringing out their favourite bag of toys. Its a characteristic you look for when buying a horse for jumping. No point in trying to make one jump which doesn't enjoy it, when you can have one that does instead.

[Melonade]

Allergic and Allivstapolis if you are so concerned, why don't you bother to get your facts right. While i appreciate your sentiments, both of you cone out with quite unintentionally fuuny things.

Most GN horses are highly unlikely to have been raced as 2 year olds, as they are a different type of racehorse.

But do you object to veal cattle being raised for slaughter, or lambs, who don't even get to live that long? And who are then transported miles in crowded terrified conditions?

[Allergictoironing]

Melonade I haven't given any incorrect facts? I've just said that the thoroughbred horse I used to have loved running & racing others, and would get very excited about it. And that thoroughbred horses mature much faster than many other breeds, so can in general be backed much earlier. Oh, and said that the jumps aren't 8 feet high but around 5 feet, and have soft tops the horses can brush through.

Don't think any of those are incorrect? All stated to correct some slightly over the top comments by people who are anti-racing.....

[SelectAUserName]

I would agree with a reduction in field size; even a drop to 35 would still leave it as the biggest (in terms of number of runners) race in the country and give the remaining runners a little more room to manoeuvre.

Melonade I agree that the pace within the race has become generally faster earlier, for a variety of complex factors:

1. the trends in NH breeding towards a faster, lighter-built stamp of horse
   
2. the improvement in training / fittening methods which mean the horses are competitive from the off rather than the old tradition of 'hunting' round the first circuit and only starting to race on the second
   
3. the better quality of horse entered for the race these days (tomorrow's race includes a former Gold Cup/King George winner and this season's Hennessy winner and there are no runners from 'out of the handicap') who have a higher cruising speed
   
4. the lowering of the fences which can encourage horses to 'hurdle' them without breaking stride rather than slowing down and sitting back on their hocks.

[Melonade]

Must have got you confused with another poster Allergic then, my apologies. Does someone on here really think the GN fences are 8 feet high?!

[Minnieisthedevilmouse]

Oh yay....

Op didn't give a crap for the majority of life just thinks about it almost day before the race. And will forget minute race stops til next year....

[Allergictoironing]

Melonade -
Alisvolatpropiis Fri 04-Apr-14 00:39:02
Santa Other horse races are different insofar as they don't have horse running flat out at 8 foot hedges.

Implies that the fences are 8 feet high yes. Later in the same post I hate the "horses enjoy it" argument - if horses enjoyed leaping that kind of jump, paddock fences wouldn't only be about 4 foot high would they.

[Melonade]

Of people are so concerned •Allergic•, why dint they care enough to get their facts right? And I'm equally gobsmacked at paddock fences being 4 feet high and horses never jumping out.

Sadly, lovely horses like Our Vic also die in hurdle races, over very small jumps.
Does anyone think jockeys are not so good as in the past? Richard Johnson is one I could think of who seems to have blips on seeing strides.

[AuroraRoared]

YANBU - I find the whole thing really upsetting and haven't watched it for years.

The horses that survive the jumps look in a terrible state after the race.

It strikes me as pretty medieval to endanger animals' lives in this way for human entertainment.

[Allergictoironing]

I knew a horse who would jump out of the indoor school if he was turned out in it - 14:2 pony and a 5.5 foot gate .

ISTR that one of the biggest dangers in NH races is the loose horses who have dumped their rider and insist on carrying on, getting in the way of other horses & bringing them down. Presumably they are continuing over the jumps rather than pulling up or running away because they hate it.

I lost my thoroughbred mare due to her shying at a leaf and tearing a tendon (scatty horse!) - was permanently lame from that & went to stud. And a friend's horse put it's foot down a rabbit hole & broke it's leg cantering gently along.

[SelectAUserName]

Just to put the statistic linked to by mathanxiety above into some sort of context, approximately 6,600 horses (a conservative estimate) will have run in the Grand National since 1839. Those 79 deaths listed are incredibly sad and every racing/horse/animal lover wishes they hadn't happened, but almost 99% of all GN runners came home safely.

10,391 animals are used in animal experiments / testing / vivisection in the UK every day.
370 animals are rescued from cruelty by the RSPCA* in the UK every day.
19 stray dogs are put down in the UK every day.
27 cats or dogs are hit by cars in the UK every day.
Almost 2.5 million poultry birds are slaughtered for food in the UK every day.
Approximately 82,000 cattle, sheep and pigs are slaughtered for food in the UK every day.

I think of (and in some cases see first-hand) the conditions these animals live in, and in many cases the manner of their deaths, and I just can't reconcile the pampered lifestyle of racehorses who get best of food, bedding, rugs, veterinary attention, regular exercise, companionship of other members of their species etc etc as "abuse", even if on regrettable occasions that life is cut short on the racetrack, where death comes swiftly - either instantaneously or within minutes at the hands of a trained vet. Death is not the worst thing that can happen to an animal.

*RSPCA figures only; does not include any other UK charities / rescues / shelters.

[noddingoff]

OP, YANBU to suggest banning the Grand National on the grounds that animals are being exploited for human pleasure, and some of them die. However, for consistency's sake, you should also call for the banning of eating meat and keeping pets.
Meat eating is not essential for humans, therefore all animals killed for meat die for human pleasure, not necessity. My dad's a farmer and keeps sheep and beef cattle. If all goes according to plan, 100% of them will die for human pleasure. Some of them will suffer on the way, despite our best efforts - we found a sick ewe with dead triplet lambs inside her last week - there had been no obvious signs that she was trying to lamb. We also found a heifer with a sore eye, caught her up and treated her, ditto a couple of ewes that were hopping lame. I have no doubt that if these had been racehorses, where one person looks after 2 or 3 individuals rather than 50 or 100 or more animals per person, they could have been treated and thus their suffering alleviated sooner. Dad once had a heifer that broke her leg - the vet came and euthansed her safely (she was entangled in a gate at the far end of the farm)- but she was suffering for a lot longer than the Grand National casualties that are shot in a matter of minutes.
Pets exist for human pleasure. I am a small animal vet and see a lot more suffering due to obesity, arthritis, loneliness, poor dental care etc in the pet population than there will ever be in the racehorse population. Some of these animals suffer for years if not presented to a vet- mostly due to ignorance on the part of the owners. Racehorse trainers and stable lads are knowledgeable and illness or lameness gets addressed quickly.
As for the argument that "some horses go for meat" - racehorses are much more used than cattle and sheep to being transported and being in unfamiliar surroundings, so you could argue that it's less stressful for a horse going to an abattoir than a bullock or a lamb.

[Melonade]

'NoddingOff' That all means perfect sense, thank you.

But you cannot account for the views of people who see something on tv once a year and their hysterical reaction.

Although if the GN did have 8 feet high fences, my guess is that it would be very safe indeed, as nearly all the horses would refuse at the first fence, never mind the second. That would be way higher than the Olymic showjumping. Which is about 1m 65, isn't it? 8 feet would be about 2 metres 30?

[kerstina]

I agree with selectausername .Most people who work in the racing industry are passionate about their horses and are devastated if anything happens to them. They are very well cared for and love racing. My dad loved horse racing and I always used to argue with him that it was cruel. I didn't like the way the whips were used either. However I think if my dad had the choice he would rather die as a horse in a race than as he did forced to endure pain in an NHS hospital. Also agree about halal meat being bannen and the meat industry in general before you start on about horse racing. Do you eat meat OP.

[Allergictoironing]

It's around the world record for equestrian high jump, and significantly higher than the usual maximum reached in a puissance event which tends to end at about 7' 3" to 7' 5".

Grand Prix show jumping (which includes the Olympics, World Cup etc) is up to 5'3" in the first round, usually goes up a maximum of 3" for a jump off. I haven't the faintest idea what it would be in metres!

[muffinino82]

Norrmal horse doesn't come to the end of a gallop coverered in white sweat gloop

Sometimes they do, if they sweat enough. Horses that gallop around the x-country course at Badminton will end up with white sweat on a hot year. Horses have died doing that course, maybe we should ban 3 day eventing. Hell, sometimes they get sweaty enough for it to turn white doing dressage or even just hacking out. Mine will get sweat that turns white just from grazing in the field if it's hot enough (two cobs so designed for the cold).

[GoldenGytha]

It's high time all horse racing was banned,

Awful, awful bloodsport, cruel, and so brutal for all horses involved, 1089 horses dead since March 2007.

Even just one horse death is one too many.

[mathanxiety]

SelectAUserName -- I agree the proportion needs to be looked at. However, the way I feel about the GN now is, there is the possibility that one or more of those gorgeous animals being led around the enclosure before the start will be dead within half an hour, and the jockeys are at risk too. So I don't watch it.

[FrankelandFilly]

I try to stay out of this argument, but always get dragged in!

Melonade I'm 99% certain that Our Vic is alive and kicking. I'm sure I saw him at the British Racing School just a few months ago!

As has been pointed out, horse fatalities on the racecourse are very very rare when you look at the numbers involved. There are something in the region of 15,000 horses in training in the UK alone and each horse will probably run an average of 4 or 5 times per year. According to the BHA statistics (full info here) approximately 2 in every 1000 will result in a fatality.

There is lots of information about the steps taken to minimise risks to horses and the veterinary research that the racing industry undertakes on the BHA website.

This is the review that was undertaken into the Grand National in 2011

[FrankelandFilly]

I ought to add, I work in racing and have done so for the last 14 years in one aspect or another. I'm a flat racing girl at heart, though I do enjoy jump racing. However I agree that the National throws a spotlight on our sport and that if it continues to be a source of bad news stories it's future has to be considered as it cannot be allowed to distort the rest of the sport.

This is a good site to look at in terms of welfare info, etc

[mathanxiety]

Melonade -- a cursory look at the stats makes me think the rate of deaths is pretty steady. The figure that jumps out is the number of deaths at Becher's Brook (14). The next worst is 4/20 (8), followed by the Canal Turn (7)

I am not opposed to horse racing in general, but I hate to see the wanton waste. My grandad bred horses on his farm and raced his own horses in point to points in Ireland during the 1930s, 40s, and 50s. He was built like a jockey, and it was his hobby and extra money maker all rolled into one. The horses put his children through university. He loved the horses and my mum and all her siblings did too.

If the particularly fatal hurdles were removed or significantly modified it would still be a race. I sometimes get the impression that those hurdles are the ones people are waiting and watching for, however -- that for some seeing who lives and who dies is what the sport constitutes.

[Nomama]

As others have done the numbers etc I thought I'd just add a note about the lathering - the 'white gloop'

It is sweat and often shows most where tack or jockey's legs are in direct contact with the skin. The friction sort of ruffles it up and makes it more noticeable, just like you get with shaving cream. It is not an indicator of overwork, just lathered sweat.

[Allergictoironing]

Math the problem with your solution (moving the "hurdles") is that they aren't hurdles, they are permanent jumps. And though it would be possible to rebuild a number of the Aintree jumps from scratch, Beecher's is a ditch with a drop so can't be moved easily, and the Canal Turn is just that - a jump with a turn directly after.

the jumps have been modified significantly over the years e.g. some of the ditches on the take off side have been filled in, the heights have been lowers, and the construction has been changed.