to offer a different perspective on the "clique" thing

[CailinDana]

I sympathise with people who struggle to make friends. It's hard, and loneliness is horrible. I've been in situations where I've struggled to make friends and it was extremely frustrating.

But. I always saw my lack of friends as my problem or the product of circumstances rather than the fault of "cliquey" others who wouldn't include me.

Aren't "cliques" just friendship groups that you don't happen to be part of? And surely it's not their duty to include you if they don't want to? It's up to them who they want to be friends with and it seems odd to get angry at them for not just insiscriminately including everyone.

Definitely, some peope are just Not Nice. But why want to be friends with them anyway? Everyone else is just bumbling along getting by. If they happen to have a group of friends they laugh with at the school gate, good for them.

Don't look to others to validate you. They just don't have the time or inclination to do that.

I totally agree about the anxiety cycle. I also think that if someone is over keen to be friends then the other person picks up on it and it is offputting. Popularity breeds popularity IMO

Cheeseandfickle

It's kind and courteous to include people and chat to others, even if they're not your main friends. Just being friendly and non-cliquey isn't going to mean 1000 extra people are desperate to join your group.

I agree with Nocomet that some people are just rude in ignoring people they don't know who've come along to the same group etc. A smile and a friendly hello cost nothing.

Some people seem to protest too much that they're "not cliquey" when really they just can't be bothered to talk to anyone except their current group of friends.

So do you chat to everyone around you in a social situation hun?

I moved to a new area. Local mums were initially friendly but then I was occasionally invited for coffee only to be told at length of trips, outings, parties where they'd all had a great time. Despite inviting people round for coffee or offering lifts or to help with various events - never taken up - I was getting increasingly lonely.

Posters on MN suggested telling people I was lonely but this only led to being told that my ds would be my friend. I have got used to my own company but it still hurts to see other newcomers welcomed fully into the fold.

You can't force friendships and you wouldn't want to break up existing close friendships. Sadly this does mean in small communities that some people get excluded and if

..moving isn't an option you're stuck.

Aren't "cliques" just friendship groups that you don't happen to be part of? And surely it's not their duty to include you if they don't want to? It's up to them who they want to be friends with

Yup, that's what you would be encouraged to think, if you went along to a cognitive behavioural therapist.

It's all about perception.

It's easy to blame the clique, but generally it's me and not them. They're an established group of friends (rather than a clique) and probably don't want to upset the balance by adding somebody new. To be honest I don't bother making an effort any more, my youngest changes schools in September so there won't be any more school runs where I will get to stand in the playground and so the chance to try and make friends will disappear with that.
I'm OK with that, I think it is best all round if I try not to make friends and carry on the way I am with my own life.

Sorry to hear about your past experiences Cailin.

Aren't "cliques" just friendship groups that you don't happen to be part of? And surely it's not their duty to include you if they don't want to? It's up to them who they want to be friends with

Yup, that's what you would be encouraged to think, if you went along to a cognitive behavioural therapist.It's all about perception.

I absolutely agree with this. I have spent many years trying to overcome my shyness and insecurities and imo this is such an important lesson to learn.

Regarding the situation at the surestart centre. No, it wasn't nice of them to ignore you and glare, but why on earth would you want to be froends with people like that anyway? I would have perceived it as a lucky escape. Much better to know from the start that they wrren't my type of people than to have got chatting to them only to have to spend the next few years trying to avoid them.

I think the dynamics of a group can make a difference as to whether they are likely to include new people or not.

I have four friends that are parents of DS' friends, we often meet for coffee after drop off and invite all and sundry.

But we also often go out as couples / dinner parties, as our husbands all happen to get on well, so that might feel like we are excluding others, but if we included everyone then finding a night that suited everyone, and a restaurant that could accommodate 20 would make it a logistical nightmare. Not to mention that we wouldn't be able to chat to our close friends if there were lots of others that didn't know anyone and needed to be included.

Similarly with getting together in the holidays, we all have a similar age gap with our DCs, so to include others who are new to the school and probably have much younger DCs would make it complicated as the older ones want to go to Alton Towers / Bullring shopping, whereas those with younger ones would prefer soft play.

So if at coffee someone (innocently but possibly tactlessly) says "Oh what time are we meeting on Saturday?" it could result in others feeling left out, but for valid, but not unfriendly reasons.

Cailin, what inspired this thread?

I blame Facebook. I think it is quite legitimate to invite certain people to certain things - not every event has to be an "everyone you know" affair - but the habit of facebooking everything has made this very tricky to manage discreetly.

but I do think there are contexts in which it is kind to be nice and inclusive to people you don't want to be friends with. Surestart centres aren't about meeting people you want to go on holiday with, they are about propping up the woman whose husband works away and has a colicky baby and hasn't spoken to an adult for days.

I have very high quality control about actual friends. But I hope I can manage to be nice to all sorts of people I will never be real friends with.

This thread was inspired by the threads that crop up regularly with people saying "I can't make friends, everyone is so cliquey." Also I notice a couple of mums at my playgroup tend to sit alone every week and sometimes look quite miserable. I have tried and tried to get them to join in and it annoys me to think they might be going home thinking "the people in that group are so hard to make friends with" when in fact it is totally their own lack of engagement that's standing in their way.

I also notice that when on the threads about struggling to make friends I suggest ways to improve things it mostly gets ignored. That makes me think that effectively it's just a misery-fest and people prefer to blame others for being nasty and "cliquey" than to examine the ways in which their own behaviour contributes to their friendlessness.

tbh, I think that if you have never encountered one, you will not know what the rest of us are going on about.

All the stuff that you describe op, are nowhere near cliques.

I agree, bluepen

There are definitely some groups of friends around that are bitchy and unpleasant, and it is those that I would define as a clique

I have moved quite a lot in the last few years. Unhappily for me, we moved just when we had children so feeling lonely and alienated in a foreign culture near school gates was quite large. However I agree with OP. Some people chat, some don't. I come off as confident and aloof. I am actually embarrassed and awkward but no one knows that!
My observation of the clique thing is that it usually involves immature people who come off as whispering, giggling types. Does that make sense? I have found that most people have full lives, with extended families, professional lives and downtime to fit in. Nobody has enough time. And it is usually as simple as that! My tupence worth!

I do think too that some groups of friends operate on a "your face doesn't fit" basis, which I think can be quite mean.

I have had experience of that in the past, and of suddenly being treated as if my face doesn't fit. It's hurtful.

What does "y

What does "your face doesn't fit" mean?

When a group suddenly starts to exclude someone for no apparent reason. I have had that done to me before by a group of 6 women that I thought were my friends.

Did you ever ask what was going on?

Yes but no one would ever shed any light on it.

At risk of outing myself; I met these women on a parenting forum when I had my youngest child. The group dwindled over the years and there were a few of us left on a FB group. I thought I got on well with everyone.

Then a group of us had a spa weekend together, which I really enjoyed and felt that I got on fine with everyone. I am quite quiet though and it was quite dominated by a couple of louder women. When we got back, all but one of them just stopped talking to me, and started ignoring my posts on the group.

I wondered at first whether I was being oversensitive, but I tried speaking to 3 of them individually and they all denied that anything was going on.

I don't think that I behaved badly or in an unlikeable way that weekend at all. I just think it was a case of my face not fitting any longer.

When I first moved abroad, I was in a NCT evening meet up group with a lot of Embassy wives. They were perfectly lovely and polite and inclusive even. But it became very clear after 2 or 3 meet ups that I was never going to be clutched to their inner bosom because my life was so different to theirs. I could not join in with conversations about where to buy a ball gown, or which (expensive) gym was the best. It was clear my face didn't fit there, so I moved on and looked for friends in other directions.

That is entirely different to a new mum going to a local baby group or someone in a school playground being entirely blanked by other people. You don't have to become bosom buddies, but it is perfectly possible to say hi and smile or make some general chit chat before moving on to catch up with your mate. Especially if you are a confident person that CAN chat to others at ease. It's just the nice thing to do!

The type of clique that upsets me is one where if you fall out with one member, the whole rest of the gang become cold, unfriendly, hostile even. Ugh.

I know Holiday - as part of an expat community we make special efforts not to let individual fall outs affect the wider group, as it is just not fair. In fact I think it makes us face up to stuff and resolve problems, rather than cut someone off and bitch about them behind their back. Isn't that what grown ups should do? It's what I tell my dd. If you have hassle with someone - ignore as much as possible, apologise if you are in the wrong, remain polite.

Hmm I know "quiet" can come across as aloof and unfriendly or even snobbish. If they felt you were like that then they couldn't say "we don't like you." Not that that excuses the way they treated you.