To think playgroup shouldn't withhold food from DD for not saying thank you

[Tweasels]

...or am I being a PFB twat.

She's 2.5 and not actually my PFB but my second.

Her speech isn't brilliant, she talks loads, has wide vocabulary but pronounciation is poor. I understand her but others don't always. Spoke to friend who is a SALT who said nothing to worry about...anyhoo..

Picked her up from playgroup this morning where they'd made scones. DD goes to get hers from worker who says "Say thank you" as she hands it to her. DD won't say thank you, never does. We work on it every bloody day but she won't say it. So worker pulls scone away from DD and repeats "Say Thank you". DD just looking up at her so again she pulls it away.

This happened 3 times before I intervened, explained she can't say it and took the scone off her myself. (I obviously said thank you )

DD looked quite humiliated and was quite upset on the way home.

I think the worker was wrong to do this? Your thoughts?

[BornFreeButinChains]

If she was older I'd understand where people are coming from

Exactly, 5 on wards its pretty much imperative unless the child looks really distressed for some reason ( sudden shyness). I think we can all cut a two year old slack.

[BornFreeButinChains]

The focus on the two year old is mind blowing.

An adult is lording it over a vulnerable two year old using food a treat as a tool to control her and extract something from her.

Yet its the two year old saying thanks, that most people are worried about

[FlirtingFail]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I just wanted to say that DD used to be like this. She is very articulate, but got very stubborn about saying thank you and hello. I think this was in part shyness, and then stubbornness. I hated it and had a couple of epic showdowns with her - which I now regret.

Even in Reception, she was awful about acknowledging people who said hello to her when we got to school.

She is now 6 and has pretty much grown out of it.

I think we expect a lot of young children. Please and thank you come easily to some, but not to others. Perhaps those whose children are great at it shouldn't be quite so smug.

YANBU.

[FlirtingFail]

PS I had to realise that the issue was my embarrassment rather than it being the end of the world that a small child didn't want to say thank you.

[Minnieisthedevilmouse]

Rtt but I can't work out if she can't say thank you but says ta or refuses all words associated to ta.

My 18mth old is hit n miss on ta. My 3yr old is waaaay to concientious on thank you and keeps holding object until she thinks you are polite enough. I'd be hoping for a middle ground tbh....

[crazy88]

Something similar once happened to my ds1 where he wasn't given his snack because "he wasn't folding his arms" . I wish I had challenged it at the time but I was more timid in those days and it was the pre school manager who I assumed knew what she was doing. I wouldn't let it pass nowadays.

YANBU tweazels, do you think she realised she had messed up?

[daytoday]

Of course it's bad!! Well done you.

I wouldn't force it with such a young child. Good manners form like a habit, over time. They should be warm and positive so the child feels good when using them. It's not something I have ever 'enforced'.

Im always a bit confused when I see a kid in tears with a parent looming over them shouting at them to say thank you.

[Goldmandra]

Like many things discussed on MN, we can reasonably expect that she will be able to say thank you by the time she's a teenager. If she can't there will, no doubt, be an identified reason for that.

Two year olds are in the process of learning about social conventions. Our job is to teach them how to use them, not to bully them into doing so.

Once they understand them and are old enough to realise the power of using them, they will do it without thinking. If someone hands a scone to a two year old without expecting a thank you, they aren't creating problems, spoiling them or teaching them to be rude. They are allowing them to build their own understanding of social conventions at their own pace which is perfectly appropriate.

[LetTheRiverAnswer]

People can be very cruel in their 'teaching' good manners. My ds1 was once not allowed snack at play group because he wasn't sat on a chair. The only available chair was unreachable, unless he'd crawled under the table (not allowed) and I couldnt pass him over because I was very pregnant. That little incident triggered such anxiety issues because he just didn't understand what he was meant to do. I had to stop going to playgroups for quite a while because he'd get so stressed as soon as they had to sit down for snack or song time, and would have a melt down. I wish I hadn't let it pass, she was a bully.
Ds1 and ds2 have both been late talkers and both have been put on the spot at different times. For ds2 its ineffectual, but he doesn't get upset. Ds1 is sensitive and more anxious by nature, and it does a lot if damage. He does have speech problems. I've found this a very interesting thread.

[RachelWatts]

My DS1, like some other children mentioned upthread, will only say thank you once he's actually got possession of whatever treat is being offered. Before he gets it, he says "please".

This once led to a potentially awkward incident at a playgroup, where the lady with the snacks held onto them when he tried to take them and demanded he say "thank you" first. He was baffled, but fortunately instead of throwing himself to the floor in a tantrum (usually the default) he just kept pulling until she lost her grip. I could see her outraged expression, but before she could say anything, he said "Stank oo!" and scampered off!

[MiniSoksMakeHardWork]

Yabu. Slightly. The nursery was not withholding food. They simply were not letting her take something she had made home until she said thank you. That is very different from not allowing them food at snack or meal time for the same thing. So you have deliberately clouded the issue by your title.

However, there was no need for the nursery worker to get too pushy over it. A simple, if you can't say thank you then I shall give this to mummy, would suffice. The hope being that your dd would say thank you for you perhaps when you gave it to her at home.

The only thing I have ever found works with manners is constant modelling and repetition until the child understands that nice things happen when we use our manners. It does feel completely daft to hand a child a treat and say thank you as you're giving it to them, in the hope that they copy. Logically the child probably wonders why on earth they are being thanked when they are given something. But the brain gets there eventually.

[BornFreeButinChains]

Goldmandra Wed 19-Mar-14 20:33:03*

Great post.

[KatherinaMinola]

YANBU. Have a word with the playgroup. Agree with everything Goldmandra said.

[MoominMammasHandbag]

My nephew would never say please or thank you or even hello or goodbye. I thought he was pretty rude to be honest, we had a few lively family get togethers, with older people demanding he use his manners.
When he went to school he was diagnosed as a selective mute. It took a massive amount of work from my sister to get him able to talk at school.
He's at high school now, and after a few melt downs and other problems, he's been diagnosed with autism. Because he's very bright, he's managed to more or less cope for years.
Obviously this as an extreme case, but I am very ashamed of how judgy I have been of him in the past. I've certainly told my sister he shouldn't have treats because of his bad behaviour. I am trying to be kinder in future.

[BlackeyedSusan]

my five year old would not say thankyou either if asked. nor would he look distressed. he would be quite likely to stare at you impassively, hence looking rude. he has a disability that means he is not always able to communicate or understand communication but many would not know that as he looks nt.

perhaps people who say it is teaching manners should look up the this is my child campaign on mumsnet and get themselves educated.

[anastaisia]

The nursery worker is modelling worse manners than the 2 year old IMO. I would have got the scone for her too and think YANBU.

I would be saying lots of thank yous to the child and to other people in her hearing - and I would thank people on her behalf when she forgets or refuses. Both my children have picked up on it being a polite social response that others react well to and now thank people themselves through that and have never been forced to. Better to keep showing them what you want them to do by example than to bully then into doing it.

[Tweasels]

Goldmandra couldn't agree more.

MiniSoks fair comment about the thread title. I was quite angry this afternoon and possibly being a tad overdramatic . Thankfully many lovely posters saw past that and responded.

[ClownsLeftJokersRight]

Blimey a 2.5 year old is still a work in progress regarding this. They get it in the end but often go through that clamming up stage especially if the spotlight is suddenly on them. It's best to just let them see you saying a cheery general 'lets say thank you from us...thank you, bye bye..' for you both.

I knew someone who made waay too much of all this when a group of us used to meet up with our 2 yr olds. Insisting on her dc saying hello, saying goodbye, saying thankyou, to everyone individually all the time. It was endless and there were long agonised wrangles whilst they laboured away over it. By the time they'd said all that it was time to leave.

[007licencetospill]

I think you are over reacting. If your DD isn't shy, it's ok to encourage a thank you

[Goldmandra]

it's ok to encourage a thank you

What the OP describes isn't just 'encouraging'.

[Misspixietrix]

Of course it is ok to 'encourage' a thankyou. It is however not okay to not give food because one wasn't given. We are talking about a 2.5yo not a 5yo who could readily say thankyou and wouldn't.

[ChocolateWombat]

This isn't an issue about food. The nursery worker would have withheld a piece of craft or art they had done, for the same reason. In this case, it just happened that the product of the activity they had done was food. It was not essential to daily calorie intake, but an extra, so the child was not being denied their food (which would be wrong)
I have done this at home. When toddler was stroppy and refused to say please or Thankyou, they did not get what they wanted. Ta or whatever is appropriate for them at their age and speech is perfectly acceptable, but O think a child of this age can start to realise that there are implicatiOns of not being polite. Personally, I think many people are too happy to allow little ones to do whatever they like..,.and then wonder why the next age group up are rude. Realise I will be flamed for saying this.
It might not be what the parent would have done. It is their choice at home how to react. When we put our child into settings where other adults are in charge however, I think we need to accept how they approach things, sometimes it will not be the same as the way we do. In itself, this is a learning experience, even for tiny ones. I guess I am keen for a firmer line with toddlers than many people are.

[FredFredGeorge]

ChocolateWombat But the lesson that is being taught is that adults can prevent you having your own things as an exercise in their power, that's a bad lesson. It's unreasonable, it doesn't teach thankfulness - it teaches the illusion of thankfulness.

It's a horrible lesson.

[TheBody]

with my mindees I would day 'say please/thank you and then give what was asked for. I would be the one saying the words. sometimes the child joined in and sometimes not. it's just modelling manners.

the nursery worker was wrong but think people don't siestas realise that although all cms have some training and have to attend college course, safeguarding, basic EYFS principals before they set up a business, nursery workers don't. they can work in the job.

she needs some training.