To think playgroup shouldn't withhold food from DD for not saying thank you

[Tweasels]

...or am I being a PFB twat.

She's 2.5 and not actually my PFB but my second.

Her speech isn't brilliant, she talks loads, has wide vocabulary but pronounciation is poor. I understand her but others don't always. Spoke to friend who is a SALT who said nothing to worry about...anyhoo..

Picked her up from playgroup this morning where they'd made scones. DD goes to get hers from worker who says "Say thank you" as she hands it to her. DD won't say thank you, never does. We work on it every bloody day but she won't say it. So worker pulls scone away from DD and repeats "Say Thank you". DD just looking up at her so again she pulls it away.

This happened 3 times before I intervened, explained she can't say it and took the scone off her myself. (I obviously said thank you )

DD looked quite humiliated and was quite upset on the way home.

I think the worker was wrong to do this? Your thoughts?

[AndreasVesalius]

With my niece, she found that even when she felt ready to try talking at school she couldn't because she was worried about the reactions she would get, people making a big deal of it.

She was only able to overcome her SM when she got a dog.

[pointythings]

This worker needs pulling up, that is very poor practice. Your DD smiled and nodded and that should have been enough. You did the right thing to protect your DD.

[TeWiSavesTheDay]

We'll reading this thread I'm now wondering if DD was SM! I never really considered it :S luckily everyone around us was very understanding, I intervened on the odd occasion a relative tried to force the issue.

I would say I have to be very careful of my praise, for example she got very, genuinely upset a few days ago when I said 'well done' because she had managed to catch herself stumbling before she fell. She managed to explain that she didn't want attention drawn to her mistake.

Will have a look at the SM links, thank you.

[CaptainHindsight]

Yanbu OP,- she is 2.5 FFS.

Now my 4 y/o niece who says "no" when you ask her to say thank you is a completely different kettle of fish. and her fucking parents who think its hilarious

[BlackeyedSusan]

we were told by salt that any communication is good, so pointing is acceptable. we were also told not to ever do what the playgroup leader did as it can cause more difficulties.

[C4ro]

With DD, 3.5, I will occasionally wait/ prompt for the please/ thank you but it's never a long delay or fully withheld.

I know a woman who used to get her kids doing colours with smarties, get it right, get the smartie. She didn't half feel bad when she later found out one of them was colour-blind...

[Misspixietrix]

I don't think I know any 2.5yr old that could say thankyou perfectly. Ta to me is completely acceptable for a DC of that age IMO - easier for them to say. .

[catkind]

Well my kids say thank you after someone's given them something not before. Ds at 4 was completely confuddled by someone trying to pull this sort of stunt on him. So she was being unreasonable even if kid could say thank you. Anyway a thankyou extracted under threat isn't exactly a proper thankyou is it?

[Tweasels]

Thank you for all the replies. I'm going to have a very polite and constructive word tomorrow and see if we can work together to help DD a bit.

Thank you to all who have shared your stories, it's turned out a very enlightening thread and threw up the wider issue of how very shy children and those with anxiety issues and SM are treated.

It also threw up the usual fucknuts but I've been here long enough to shrug them off

[Tanith]

This came up on one of those hidden camera exposé programmes a while ago - a nursery worker withholding a biscuit from a 2 year old in a clumsy attempt to teach him manners.

She lost her job.

[Hatice]

YANBU
I am a TA and run speech and language intervention groups. I have worked with children who were very shy and several selective mute children. The nursery worker should not have insisted on a thank you. Modelling would have been the correct approach.

I have recently done training on Selective Mutism. For some children even signing is too difficult.
The following books were recommended.
www.amazon.co.uk/Supporting-Quiet-Children-Activities-Reluctant/dp/190367090X/ref=pd_rhf_cr_p_img_1_Y9V4?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21
www.amazon.co.uk/Selective-Resource-Speechmark-practical-sourcebook/dp/0863882803/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_z?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

[TheKnightsThatSayNee]

Something that works with my dd who is not sm but is anxious about speaking to people especially in pressured situations like saying thank you /hello skype etc. is to phrase things as statements rather than questions. So I will say 'This is nice cake' rather than 'is this nice cake?' She is far more likely to respond and join in the conversation.

[mymiraclebubba]

You make it sound like they withheld her meal! It was a scone to take home for heaven sakes!! I cam fully understand the playworker doing this, she may not have known that your dd can't/won't say it. Imo you need to establish which it is, won't is very different to can't and the nursery need to know the difference so they know how best to support her.

If she is the only one who can't/won't say it then singling her out with another method of expressing thanks may not be the best thing tbh. Kids pick up very early on who is different to the "norm"

If you can get her to sign it then it might be worth having a chat to the supervisor or manager at the nursery and explain and see if they can have a few sessions teaching all the kids so your dd isn't the odd one out for signing it iyswim.

My dSS is very shy and up to very recently wouldn't say a word to anyone he didn't know and he is 10.5 - working on little goals has helped but recently something has just clicked and he will pretty much talk to anyone which can be quite embarrassing at times!

[Tweasels]

Tanith

Thank you Hatice most useful!

[SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius]

Can I ask if your dd struggles to pronounce the words, or if she lacks the social confidence to speak up,in that sort of situation, or is she simply refusing to say that particular phrase?

[Waltonswatcher1]

The woman's a thoughtless bitch .
2 1/2 year old ?!?
I would not be happy . My son has only just managed to say sorry without turning beetroot and he's 11!
Why do so many kiddie haters work with kids !
( and yes I think lots do , spent my life around tiddlers and seen it time and time again .)

[scooterland]

My child never did say 'thank you' to people she didn't know that well, including staff. Saying goodbye didn't happen either, though she managed a wave.
I think the staff is wrong to withhold that because she doesn't say 'thank you'. In fact I think it's mean and not very bright to do things like that with a 2.5. It's negative. In fact she should get a reward for saying it in a star chart (maybe sth you can do if you want to work on that but you probably already know that). But withholding sth is not going to help at that age. My child is very shy (still is) and very often she just didn't say because she felt shy, it wasn't rudeness.

[TeWiSavesTheDay]

Whether it is can't or won't isn't actually important, though I know people will think it is.

Because if it is anxiety based in pressure to perform it is both can't and won't.

Consistent modelling really helps because they can learn that it is no big deal to say please and thank you.

If there are also speech issues in the saying sounds sense then increased confidence that they are getting their sounds right will also help.

Forcing the issue does not help.

[Tweasels]

SDT honestly, I don't know, she has just never said it. I think she could say it, she can copy most words but I'm not convinced she would necessarily understand why she's saying it if you see what I mean.

An example, if in a cafe someone gave her a drink. I'd automatically say "say thank you" DD would smile and nod at the person but not speak. If that person said "do you like juice" she'd reply "yes, me like juice". So not shyness I don't think.

When I explain, that she needs to say thank you when people give her things just like mummy does she says "okay" but then doesn't. It's just a lack of understanding I think.

[BornFreeButinChains]

tanith I can well believe it, the implications of withholding food on a nursery workers whims are huge which is why I think its outrageous.

It should not be allowed FULL STOP because it can be abused.

[TheScience]

Saying "thank you" like this is completely meaningless for a small child - they don't understand they are expressing gratitude, they particularly aren't going to understand why they should be expressing gratitude to someone who has almost given them something they made themselves You might as well insist they say "flibbertygibbet" on demand to get a treat.

This kind of stand off isn't about teaching manners, it's about obedience. It's an adult demonstrating their power. Young children often don't comply because they don't really understand the game being played.

Children are naturally social creatures, they want to take part in the social world around them. Seeing people around them engaging in social conventions with a smile is much more likely to make toddlers join in than an adult putting them on the spot and forcing them to repeat a phrase.

[BornFreeButinChains]

This is not about the thank you its about the worker feeling such power to withhold the food. what else is she up too> Johnny has played up, so lets deny him lunch....its not on.

[Tweasels]

TeWi I totally agree. I know some people on here don't agree but I'm not that bothered that she doesn't say it. She's learning everyday and it will come. She's not rude she's just a 2 year old. I think people think that if their child can do something then everyone else's should. It's daft.

If she was older I'd understand where people are coming from. If my son who is 9 didn't say thank you after someone handed him something he'd get wrong as he knows better. She doesn't, it's that simple in my mind.

[BornFreeButinChains]

Great post The science. Although, understanding the two year old saying "thank you" is trivial and not important..is not rocket science


[boom boom]

[SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius]

If she isn't shy, and her speech is OK, then I would assume that it will happen sooner or later, especially as she is hearing you say it. I guess she'll start saying it when she understands it.