To think playgroup shouldn't withhold food from DD for not saying thank you

[Tweasels]

...or am I being a PFB twat.

She's 2.5 and not actually my PFB but my second.

Her speech isn't brilliant, she talks loads, has wide vocabulary but pronounciation is poor. I understand her but others don't always. Spoke to friend who is a SALT who said nothing to worry about...anyhoo..

Picked her up from playgroup this morning where they'd made scones. DD goes to get hers from worker who says "Say thank you" as she hands it to her. DD won't say thank you, never does. We work on it every bloody day but she won't say it. So worker pulls scone away from DD and repeats "Say Thank you". DD just looking up at her so again she pulls it away.

This happened 3 times before I intervened, explained she can't say it and took the scone off her myself. (I obviously said thank you )

DD looked quite humiliated and was quite upset on the way home.

I think the worker was wrong to do this? Your thoughts?

[imonaplane]

Good for you, Tweasels, but you knew that all along! [Big grin]

[OlympiaFox]

Dd (2) always, unprompted, thanks taxi drivers, service staff, people who give her presents etc... everyone except my idiotic family. Before the poor child has the chance to get the words out of her mouth they're shouting 'say thank you, thank you, THANK YOU...' while she looks away bored and refuses them any kind of attention. It's infuriating tbh, I tell them to leave her alone, they don't deserve a thank you because they're so rude, if they'd just shut up they'd get one. It creates an issue where none exists.

When she thanks others, it's because she's copying what she sees her father and I do, she's behaving in a 'grown up' manner and likes getting positive attention for it.

If other adults want to do what is counter productive and give a child social anxiety, they can mess up their own kids. It's not their place to inflict their harmful ignorance on yours. Anyone working with children should be obliged to have a clue. yanbu.

[hazeyjane]

blondes the op said that she has explained to her dd

*An example, if in a cafe someone gave her a drink. I'd automatically say "say thank you" DD would smile and nod at the person but not speak.....When I explain, that she needs to say thank you when people give her things just like mummy does she says "okay" but then doesn't. It's just a lack of understanding I think.'

[Blondeshavemorefun]

so dd can talk/speak some words, but just smiles/nods instead of thank you

maybe you need to say to dd that when someone gives you something/does something for you etc its nice to say thank you, or their word till they can say it and not just smile/nod

tbh the nursery worker did what i would have done, if a child im looking after doesnt say please/thank you/some kind of their word to show manners then they wont get a biscuit/treat etc

i hate ta with a passion, and i teach children to say thank you from an early age, by saying it myself, obv they start off by saying que, and progresses to wank you and eventually get to thank you

dont see the point in teaching ta to then start changing it to thank you

[TheIncredibleBookEatingManchot]

I was very shy as a child. Up to about 11 or 12 I often couldn't say thank you, I would just smile and nod.

If adults keep telling you you're rude and witholding things from you, you start believing you are a horrible person who doesn't deserve anything. You don't learn to get over it, you just learn you aren't as good as other people and that you will never get what you want.

Even now as an adult that lesson still sticks.

[Tweasels]

Oh, the thread has made a resurgence.

I have done some further research on this and spoke to some early years professionals and a speech and language therapist who all agree it is bad practice and likely to hinder a child's speech development and not help at all.

So I officially am not being unreasonable

Thank you for your input imonaplane to be clear I didn't do that, I was referring to the several people who entirely missed the point of the thread and were spouting uneducated shit. If you actually read the thread, particularly the posts from the people who have had children with speech delay, selective mutism and ASD you will see how damaging it can be when adults use these methods with children.

[JodieGarberJacob]

Thank goodness for chocolatewombat I was beginning to doubt there was anyone sane on here!
I'm sure the nursery models good manners every day in the way that mners would approve of. Also just because the scone 'was hers' why would that make a difference to saying thank you or not? If someone hands me my pencil/ipad/scone I would still say thank you or convey my gratitude in another way.
And saying thank you when you are expecting a thank you is probably very confusing to a young child and not a good way of modelling for the very young I would have thought.

[imonaplane]

What I think is unreasonable is that OP has posted in AIBU and then called every one who says that she is "fucknuts"!

[insancerre]

yanbu
that is shockingly bad practice
as an eyp and senco I think the worker is not helping at all and is probably making things worse
when children have anxieties over speaking forcing them to speak is cruel and counter productive
the worker was on s power trip and abusing her position
children should never be forced to speak

[BurntPancake]

Just wanted to say that marianne my ds1 is exactly the same with not dressing up, no singing etc. He's nearly 4 now and nowhere near as shy as he used to be, he had speech delay and at 2.5 could not actually say thank you and even when he could he only spoke to me and DH for a long time, he wouldn't say a word to any other adult. I think he was aware of his speech difficulties maybe.
He happily chats away to staff at preschool now and is very polite and well mannered.
Yanbu op, if a 2 yr doesn't say Please and thank you it's not a huge deal in my opinion as long as they are being taught manners. They aren't being rude at that age.

[NurseRoscoe]

My little boy is the same age and says thank you, not pronounced perfectly but you know that is what he is saying, my 14 month old niece says 'ta'

With no special needs or speech and language problems I do think she should at least say 'ta' or make an attempt at thank you now, manners are important even if pronunciation isn't overly at that age. They shouldn't of refused her a snack or humiliated her but it is something you should work on with her now :)

[FredFredGeorge]

chocolatewombat Yes parents need to deny toddlers and children doing things, and other adults can join in that experience. There's a big difference though between denying/stopping them something that is reasonable (stopping them walking along a high wall, next to a river, or chocolate for breakfast) and having access to their own things.

And it certainly needs to be in the context of an explanation of why, "say thank you" and taking it away is very different from, "it's polite/normal/expected to thank someone when they do something for you, so you should say thank you, here's your scone". One might teach, the other is just an abuse of power.

[BornFreeButinChains]

This practitioner wasn't doing this for the benefit of the child. It was a power game. I've seen it far too many time to have any doubt

Agree.

It is certainly open to abuse as a power game and should be out lawed, there needs to be a proper system of reward in place, not just randomly allowed to do whatever the people working their feel like.

[BornFreeButinChains]

A parent who 99.9% loves their child and knows them inside out judging when to hold a piece of food back is fine.

A random nursery worker who is allowed to do this to a child who is a client is not. Or should not be allowed.

[Goldmandra]

It seems entirely reasonable and effective to me, to sometimes withold what a child wants if they won't say or do the thing we have been teaching them to do for sometime.

The crucial point here is that the adult must be certain that the child is able to perform the action they require of them and that doesn't just mean that they have been observed doing it or something similar in other circumstances.

However well the adult knows the child, they may miss something that is causing the child to be unable to speak and this is why good practice is to model and encourage, not insist or punish.

This practitioner wasn't doing this for the benefit of the child. It was a power game. I've seen it far too many time to have any doubt.

[MsAspreyDiamonds]

My ds had speech delay so we & the nursery used makaton signs & gestures to reinforce his speech. He spoke random words but could understand us well & replied in his own way using signs & pictures.

www.makaton.org/aboutMakaton/

[Misspixietrix]

Indeed SDT! Homemade bread is a product of as activity. It doesn't make it any less a food! .

[cory]

ChocolateWombat, I have had no problems withholding things from dc when they have needed to be punished. I just don't think this is a very effective way of modelling social intercourse as a positive thing.

And I have yet to see a school report from my (now teenage) children which does not specifically mention their good manners and pleasant behaviour.

Yet ds was selectively mute when he was little: he hid under the table and refused to speak to the teacher when we took him to view primary schools. Fortunately, the teacher was understanding and worked well with him. She got him to talk by encouraging rather than punishing. It required skill and patience and understanding of child psychology. Precisely the qualities you want to see in a primary school teacher in other words.

[SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius]

I suppose, if it was made by the children, during the 'activity' of baking, it would be the product of that activity, just as a picture would be the result of the activity of painting, or a Mothers' day card, the product of the activity of gluing and sticking.

It is a pretty high-falutin' way to refer to a single scone, though!

[Misspixietrix]

Since when has food been a product of activity?

[ExcuseTypos]

The nursery worker is an idiot. I would point this incident out to the manager and ask them to have a word.

I work in a year R class. This year there are 2 dc who won't even answer the register, never mind say "thank you" on demand. They both talk in activities and during play but don't like an audience. It's perfectly fine at this age.

If this play worker doesn't understand that she shouldn't be working with young children.

[TheScience]

What are you trying to teach though Chocolate? Gratitude, politeness or just obedience?

Honestly I can't think of a situation where I have with held something just to force compliance on something so arbitrary as repeating a phrase.

[ChocolateWombat]

FredFred, nursery workers aside, and thinking of the issue from a parents perspective now, do you therefore think that as a parent it is wrong to stop your child having something they want ('an exercise of power') because they won't behave in the way you expect?

I see that one of the roles of a parent is exactly tone in a position of power. We exercise power over little children all the time. It is because we are adults and are in charge of the little ones, who are not at a stage of development to be given charge of themselves. One of our jobs is to model and teach acceptable behaviour. It seems entirely reasonable and effective to me, to sometimes withold what a child wants if they won't say or do the thing we have been teaching them to do for sometime. I wouldn't see this as an abuse of power, but caring parenting. There are certainly times to say 'no' and times when there should be consequences for u desirable behaviour. Of course, these must be age appropriate and carefully chosen, but I think that the idea that a toddler totally sets the agenda and anything which interrupts what they want, is somehow an infringement of their rights, is just daft.

[TheBody]

with my mindees I would day 'say please/thank you and then give what was asked for. I would be the one saying the words. sometimes the child joined in and sometimes not. it's just modelling manners.

the nursery worker was wrong but think people don't siestas realise that although all cms have some training and have to attend college course, safeguarding, basic EYFS principals before they set up a business, nursery workers don't. they can work in the job.

she needs some training.

[FredFredGeorge]

ChocolateWombat But the lesson that is being taught is that adults can prevent you having your own things as an exercise in their power, that's a bad lesson. It's unreasonable, it doesn't teach thankfulness - it teaches the illusion of thankfulness.

It's a horrible lesson.