To think playgroup shouldn't withhold food from DD for not saying thank you

[Tweasels]

...or am I being a PFB twat.

She's 2.5 and not actually my PFB but my second.

Her speech isn't brilliant, she talks loads, has wide vocabulary but pronounciation is poor. I understand her but others don't always. Spoke to friend who is a SALT who said nothing to worry about...anyhoo..

Picked her up from playgroup this morning where they'd made scones. DD goes to get hers from worker who says "Say thank you" as she hands it to her. DD won't say thank you, never does. We work on it every bloody day but she won't say it. So worker pulls scone away from DD and repeats "Say Thank you". DD just looking up at her so again she pulls it away.

This happened 3 times before I intervened, explained she can't say it and took the scone off her myself. (I obviously said thank you )

DD looked quite humiliated and was quite upset on the way home.

I think the worker was wrong to do this? Your thoughts?

[TheScience]

I really hate this kind of poor practice in Early Years - I think this kind of approach is dying out at least.

[SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius]

Tweasels - can I ask how your dd's speech and general social confidence are? Is it that she finds the words 'thank you' hard to pronounce, or is she generally shy when interacting with people, or is it just that she is refusing to say this one phrase! but chatters happily and confidently the rest of the time?

If, and only if, it is the last option, then I think playing a bit of hard ball (well - harder ball, bearing in mind her age, and not going OTT). In that case I don't think you, or anyone else, should withhold essentials from her, if she doesn't say thank you - but perhaps you could refuse to hand over treats unless she says it.

[SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius]

Sorry - that doesn't make sense - I lost track of what I was saying.

The last paragraph should be:

If, and only if, it is the last option, then I think playing a bit of hard ball (well - harder ball, bearing in mind her age, and not going OTT), might be a reasonable approach. I don't think you, or anyone else, should withhold essentials from her, if she doesn't say thank you - but perhaps you could refuse to hand over treats unless she says it.

[missfliss]

thanks tweasels and i dont think it is trivial really, because it could reflect a real problem in their approach to preschool kids.

Hopefully this thread has reassured you somewhat that you are not being ridiculous, and that lots of us see it as about a lot more than teaching 'manners', and more related to teaching confidence and how early years practioners shoudl address that

[TheScience]

Lots of very young children won't say thank you on demand (social conventions like this are pretty meaningless to a 2 year old) - playing a little power game with them rarely works ime. Children learn through modelling and repetition, not petty punishment for non-compliance.

[breatheslowly]

I have no idea what is right/wrong in the circumstances, but DD's nursery taught signs for please/thank you and sorry. My DD's speech developed faster than average, but she refused to say "sorry" for a very long time, even though she was more than capable, she would sign it instead. I am really grateful that the nursery taught these signs as I think we may have ended up with tears and standoffs over saying sorry.

[summertimeandthelivingiseasy]

DS (22 with lovely manners) had speech delay and would have struggled to make any sense of what was expected of him if someone had done this with him at 2 1/2.

Agree that it is indicative of their approach to preschool kids.

[greenbananas]

Is not standard practice in a childcare setting - is v. BAD practice.

Withholding food is a child protection issue. The way to teach good manners is by example, not by playing power games.

Seriously, I would call ofsted helpline and ask them if this is okay. They will probably want to know where it happened, and will certainly say it is not okay.

(btw I am a childcare professional)

[AllThatGlistens]

I wish there was a like button on here!

^^ what greenbananas said.

[spikeymikie]

My son has very severe sn and doesn't speak or understand much speech yet. It annoys me when those working with him say ta when giving him something. He needs to learn it is called a biscuit etc not a ta. In the OP's case not snatching and acknowledging with a smile or nod would have been good enough for me.

[BrianTheMole]

There is some shameful ignorance on here about SM and speech development.

[Marylou62]

I have a daughter who was actually very well spoken and mostly polite but one day a friend offered her some treat and had to remind her to say thankyou...Well that went well...the stubborn streak lasted years and now at 20 we all have a laugh about it! (she didn't say it, she didn't get treat!) She admits it was pure stubbornness, and freely admits that she really wanted that treat but couldn't say it (at one time she said her mouth wouldn't let her say it!)'. It does seem mean and I wouldn't do it to someone elses child.

[aintnothinbutagstring]

Surely politeness is an extension of kindness, its not very kind to treat such a young child in that manner, and rather ironic that she trying to teach manners with bullying demands and powerplay.

My son, 2.10yrs has a mild speech delay but is able to say 'thankyoop', though he says it of his own free will not by force. Surely children of this age learn best by example, not by bullying. If the parent is polite, the child will be.

[Spiritedwolf]

Surely at 2.5years its reasonable for her just to not know that word yet?

My DS (with no known SNs) is younger (19 months) and only has a small selection of words (and a different selection of signs) that he uses so far. He doesn't copy things (even animal noises) on cue, so saying "Say ta/thank you" wouldn't suddenly result in him saying it for the first time (even if he already knew that word, he doesn't say words he knows 'on command' either). I think it would just add a level of stress/confrontation.

Putting them on the spot like that to say a word they haven't learnt yet is unhelpful, even if they don't have SM or anxiety problems. Far better to model the correct usage.

YANBU

[ElkTheory]

I remember being so shy as a child that I couldn't say hello to people. I was happy to see them, I wanted to say hello, but I just couldn't say the word. That was when I was very young and I obviously grew out of it.

I think YANBU. Your child is so little and if she literally cannot say "thank you" (or even if she is just painfully shy) it is extremely unfair to punish her for that. I'm sure she isn't being intentionally rude.

As an aside, I'm very amused by the harsh reactions to saying "ta."

[uselessinformation]

Whether people agree with this or not, schools/nurseries etc are not allowed to use food as a reward or a punishment even treats. treats can only be given occasionally and as long as nobody is excluded. By witholding the scone the worker was using the food as a punishment. It doesn't matter what people do at home it's not allowed in educational or childcare settings.

[AndreasVesalius]

My niece was selectively mute in education settings until 15. She couldn't have said thank you. The ignorance at her primary school in particular was shocking. She was shouted at regularly until she became a school-refuser. If a child cannot say something, all of the blackmail, bribery or shouting in the world will make no difference.

My DSis now realises that she let the situation at school go on too long and it was extremely detrimental to my niece's mental health. At the time DSis thought the 'experts' knew what they were doing. In reality they just thought that my niece was wilful and they tried to teach her a lesson.

[putthehamsterbackinitscage]

Glad to see the comments about selective mutism as it's not always considered....

I was that child many years ago....

Never went to play groups or preschool so when I started school as Easter I spent the whole term not speaking to the teachers or anybody - they never discussed it with my DM - she only found out later... And was surprised cos at home I was as noisy as my DBs....

Shyness carried on really for years... Little things but not asking to go to the toilet, not getting straw to drink the free bottle of milk and being told off for drinking from the bottle

And a key memory is that the one time I did talk to the teacher her response was that if I couldn't talk when she wanted me to then she wouldn't talk when I wanted her to I was 4 yo....

Yanbu - the nursery worker is.... That's how issues like this become compounded and the child gets more anxious about people and speaking ....

[GiveTwoSheets]

Worker was wrong, should of being prompting child to say please, thank you comes after you receive something not before having to perform tricks.

[Aeroflotgirl]

My goodness she is only 2, a toddler, that is unacceptable. My ds 2.2 cannot speak, just babble. All she would have gotten was a doo doo from him.

[putthehamsterbackinitscage]

X posted with Andreas....

Don't under estimate this as an issue.... It stayed with me for years - despite high academic achievement, the social side of school was incredibly hard as it wasn't treated as a SN and other kids just saw it as a good excuse for teasing - or even bullying really...

At a young age it led to toilet accidents and as an older teen I was seen as reticent and not good at group work or team stuff....

I moved away at 18 and built an entirely new life with no contact with anyone from the past but my life could have been different with support and understanding ....

[Aeroflotgirl]

I agree with green bananas food shoud not be used as a means of power. Setting a good example, te worker could have given dd the biscuit and saud thanks or thank you as she took it from her.

[Goldmandra]

They will soon learn to overcome their shyness if they don't get what they want.

Not necessarily. Lots of children will want to say it and be unable to do so. They can be dying inside, wanting to speak but just can't. The more pressure you exert, the higher their anxiety climbs and the harder it is for them to speak the next time. Those are the children who will never get the treat being held back and are labelled as stubborn.

You don't teach 2YOs effectively by playing power games like that. You teach them by modelling, highlighting and expressing pleasure in the behaviour you would like to see.