To think playgroup shouldn't withhold food from DD for not saying thank you

[Tweasels]

...or am I being a PFB twat.

She's 2.5 and not actually my PFB but my second.

Her speech isn't brilliant, she talks loads, has wide vocabulary but pronounciation is poor. I understand her but others don't always. Spoke to friend who is a SALT who said nothing to worry about...anyhoo..

Picked her up from playgroup this morning where they'd made scones. DD goes to get hers from worker who says "Say thank you" as she hands it to her. DD won't say thank you, never does. We work on it every bloody day but she won't say it. So worker pulls scone away from DD and repeats "Say Thank you". DD just looking up at her so again she pulls it away.

This happened 3 times before I intervened, explained she can't say it and took the scone off her myself. (I obviously said thank you )

DD looked quite humiliated and was quite upset on the way home.

I think the worker was wrong to do this? Your thoughts?

[RoaringTiger]

My dd is 6 and has impeccable manners when at home or in company of people she knows...when out and about, entering or leaving school she won't say hello, goodbye, please, thankyou or anything else to that effect to her friends, teachers, other parents-I've always done it for her, she knows she should but anxiety renders her unable to. She will be one of the children that people would think f as rude....last month she got diagnosed with autism and anxiety. If a nursery worker had done the above she would have been heartbroken at being punished for something she cannot control.

[ilikemysleep]

Why would a 2.5 year old deliberately withhold speech and be 'illmannered?' Christ alive its people like this with no empathy who made parenting my son so miserable. If you have modelled how to say thankyou and reinforced it and your child is not saying it still, then it's not because they are spoilt brats or rude (a 2.5 year old deliberately rude?!). Any typical young child who does not experience communication anxiety, who simply forgot to say thanks, would repeat it upon modelling. If they are capable of saying the word but don't, they are having communication anxiety. My son had this and was labelled rude by a bunch of dim-witted adults in his life who found it easier to blame him and cast negative judgements on his character than consider that maybe, just maybe, he wasn't saying thankyou because it was very hard for him to make that sort of social response. He also didn't greet people. We modelled it for YEARS. He wasn't diagnosed as selectively mute until he was 9. He's almost 13 now and guess what, half the time he STILL can't say hello or goodbye, or thanks, it depends on the perceived authority of the person and the level of expectation on him to respond (HIgher pressure = more likely to withdraw). What a lot of people don't understand is that selective mutism is a spectrum condition and the generally understood group are only the extreme end who don't speak at all in certain situations (such as school). However there is another tranche of children who can use some language - usually responding to direct questions and sometimes on-task talking - but can't use a full range of communication. They can't greet or say please and thankyou because of the pressure on them. They can't explain themselves, defend themselves, ask for help or ask questions. If the pressure increases, they may actually freeze and be unable to point or gesture even. If you want to know what it feels like, think of standing attached to a safety harness on a high wire. You know its perfectly safe, yet you are frozen to the spot. A couple of children on this thread definitely sound like they may benefit from investigation because if they do have SM the earlier the treatment starts the better. I wish I hadn't believed all those bullies telling me it was MY fault that my son was 'rude' and that if I only 'did it right' he would stop being rude. His SM is pretty entrenched now.

And if there is any hint at all of SM in the child where the poster ate chocolate piece by piece in front of her...if my SIL did that to my son, I'd have bloody well smacked her smug face. WHY do people always assume they know better than the parents?

[BeyondRepair]

Why would a 2.5 year old deliberately withhold speech and be 'illmannered?
They wouldnt be, they are simply dealing with an adult who is crazy

[ifyourehoppyandyouknowit]

Why would a 2.5 year old deliberately withhold speech and be 'illmannered'?

Aside from speech and language issues, because they're two? Being unreasonable, unpredictable and refusing to perform is kind of their reason for being at that age.

[MarianneEnjolras]

This has opened my eyes to selective mutism and I'm doing some research now.

[Tweasels]

ilikemysleep I'm sorry your son has been treated so appallingly. There is clearly a long way to go in society gaining a better understanding of selectively mute children. Anecdotally, one of my most intelligent, witty and confident friends was SM as a child.

[ilikemysleep]

HopaLongOn - exactly, two year olds are unreasonable and unpredictable. They aren't yet illmannered, they are too little!

[Tweasels]

Marianne sorry! I was meant to address you personally earlier, I'm not very good at keeping up with the thread.

My son was painfully shy when he was younger. If we bumped into a work colleague he'd literally stare at the floor and refuse to speak. I'd be mortified. He grew out of it though and is fantastic when talking to people now.

If you think it is more than shyness though, it might be worth checking out.

[Middleagedmotheroftwo]

Agree with Worra- it's not as if DD was starving. It wasn't a meal.

IMO, kids should say please and thankyou, even if they are shy. They will soon learn to overcome their shyness if they don't get what they want.
And taking the scone off the playgroup worker to give to DD yourself wasn't exactly setting a good example to the other kids, was it OP?

[summertimeandthelivingiseasy]

Holding on to a scone (which the child is supposed to have made! so it is in fact their's anyway) until they say 'thank you' is playing power games.

It is also bad manners

Not a way to teach 'manners' , but common practice :(

[deakymom]

my son was a select mute at nursery he would never say thank you either i think once maybe three times is teasing and not really age appropriate as children sometimes get blocked on words and CAN'T say it you were right to intervene

[missfliss]

deakymom you're the second person i'm asking - my son is also a selective mute, so please do share any tips (can you all tell i'm desperate).
He communicates well and confidently at home, his speech isnt also intelligible to me but 70% of it is. It takes him a long time to trust adults enough to try speech, and its heartbreaking seeing how much he wants to communicate and express his needs but cant.

[missfliss]

always not also

[TheKnightsThatSayNee]

My dd had good language but poor speech. She would never say hello/good bye/ thank you to people other than us eve nursery staff, and still won't sometimes. It isnt that she is shy really she just has very low confidence with her speech. Children with speech problems often take a lot longer than others to build up their nerve. Imagine going to a japan when you d

[MoominsYonisAreScary]

Mine was the same, hes just turned 3 now and says it all the time although its not clear to everyone what hes saying.

[TheKnightsThatSayNee]

Don't speak the language and some asking you to say a few words in public. Most people would feel very awkward about it.

[missfliss]

thankyou for your post ilikemysleep it is very enlightening and will help me empathise with my son further

[AllThatGlistens]

Christ almighty the ignorance re speech and language development on here is

The play worker shouldn't use food as a punishment. No way. Consistent modelling and use of phrases is exactly the way to go.

My son is 3.6 and has never said thank you. Having said that, he's never said Mummy or Daddy either - he has severe autism and developmental delay.

That doesn't stop me modelling the correct language for him, all day every day, in the hope he'll one day use it. (He has tonnes of echolalia speech)

I can just imagine the reactions of his speech therapists and psychologists if I suggested withholding food or drink as a way to force him to speak

[ilikemysleep]

Any posters who think they might have a child with SM, the best thing would be to have a look at SMIRA - they have a very active facebook group with lots of info about SM and lots of wise people who can advise on how to help.

[hazeyjane]

They will soon learn to overcome their shyness if they don't get what they want.

If someone is acutely shy, suffers anxiety or is selectively mute then ^^ this is simply not the case.

[MarianneEnjolras]

Don't worry about it tweasels .

I've been reading up about it and I'm going to discuss ds with his pre-school teacher as soon as I can as they have been trying to get him to speak at school too.

There are a couple of other things that have been niggling in the back of my mind about ds's shyness; he hates dressing up, absolutely despises it and is very hard to convince to play "pretend" games at home.

Also, although he will talk to me and dh non stop, he's always disliked singing. I sing all the time at home and just can't get him to join in (even if it's just making silly noises). Recently he has started to mumble along to some nursery rhymes with me but it has taken a long time to get him this far.

On their own they don't bother me, it's just who he is and he'll grow out of it (or not but if he doesn't want to sing or dress up it's no big deal) but when I look at that along with his extreme shyness with other people it does make me wonder if he has some anxiety type problems so I'll talk to his teacher and take it from there I think.

[Tweasels]

It's frightening isn't it AllThatGlistens.

[missfliss]

thanks ilikemysleep i have asked to be a member of the SMIRA Fb group

[Tweasels]

Middleagedmotheroftwo sigh. Firstly, I don't think Worra said anything as absurd as you are saying so I'm not sure what you are agreeing with.

Secondly, RTFT before making such stupid comments about shyness.

[Tweasels]

missfliss Really glad my trivial dilemma has resulted in something good!