To think, minimum wage, minimum effort

[angelos02]

If you think all I am worth is the absolute legal minimum you can pay me then you will get the absolute minimum I can get away with. Common sense really.

I see where you're going, angelos02. People really do expect quite a lot for that minimum wage. With the example of shop workers, they often have to tidy the shop and prepare it for the next day after the hours or which they are employed/paid - so their wages are lower/they are required to give their employers their time - for nothing.

Why should it be thought of as a moral failing to question why you are asked to give employers your time/life/labour absolutely free? Is it because they are poor, vulnerable people and these minimum wage workers are being mean if they don't commit these acts of charity and generosity?

I don't think so. I think it is a huge con.

The fact that you say 'they' Technical, makes me think that just maybe you don't get the minimum wage...

'They' are people.

And there are plenty in the private sector too btw.

Minimum wage becomes a living wage when you add tax credits on to it, and employers tend to pay tax to help fund that. Why shouldn't they be able to sleep at night?

And while I do think minimum wage needs to reflect living costs, how much do you actually expect it to be able to fund? How big a home, how many children, how many luxuries? I expect that people's ideas of what constitutes a living wage would all be very different.

YANBU Ive done loads of really low paid jobs and always did my best. IM now a lawyer and get paid much more, but considering one of them was actually shovelling horse shit, I think you're really precious. You use low paid jobs for experience, getting a good reputation and references. No ones going to give you a really well paid job without any of those, so where do you think you start from? Especially if you're as useless to an employer as you sound OP

If you were worth more than minimum wage youd be earning more, surely?

One reason of several why Britain is in the state it is currently is because of pathetic attitudes like yours.

My last private sector job didn't give me a pay rise above the minimum wage in the 14 years I was there.
In fact when I moved on they were trying to remove my sick pay.

Not a lot of incentives to break my back for them.

I get minimum wage and I work very hard
I am disgusted that anyone would have that attitude to be honest

It's hard to get a job these days so I appreciate the fact that I have one at all

LessMiss you say YANBU and then disagree with me? Fuck I hope you're never my lawyer

YANBU. If they hold you in such contempt that they will only pay you the legal minimum, then you are entirely justified in doing the minimum to avoid getting the sack.

Given that a lot of minimum wage jobs are soul destoyingly tedious and physically exhausting it is merely self preservation.

I know that Bloody and I do actually earn very close to minimum wage - a deliberate choice I made, having previously been quite a high earner, to remove some stress from my life. I have less responsibility and it's now the kind of job you forget about when you go home but I work just as hard as I ever did in terms of the effort I put in while I'm there.

It's not just a question of "them" increasing wages though. Public sector needs to be paid for by taxes, private means increased prices to the customer, which in turn can have a knock on effect on demand and result in few jobs.

In response to your second post, people working shops are often in customer-facing roles, and if you are working in the service industry why shouldn't you make a bit of effort to be polite/smile/engage? Is it really that hard?

I am sure it is possible to avoid such role if it really is too much effort to provide 'service' - in a supermarket, for example, perhaps you could apply/ask for a shelf-replenishing job rather than working on the checkout.

And why should being over-qualified for a role necessarily impact on your attitude if you are working in a shop? Don't you think that by being pleasant towards customers, and trying to take some measure of pride in your work it might make a potentially demoralising situation slightly better?

Katie re read your post and assess how offensive that is.....

I think we should bear in mind Woowooowl very valid point: the exploitative, capitalist structure has real people acting to exploit others, and real, flesh and blood people raking in the money (the excess profit made from paying people shit to do stuff that makes money).

So, let's answer southeastastra's question: What should we do?

I've an idea: Follow some of these people home and burn them in their beds.

It doesn't have to be too many: I reckon 50 in a month will do.

It doesn't have to be the very rich. In fact, better if not, a. the very rich are fucking scared and have very good security b. there are more "middling" folk - and this works better, the more people who are scared/perceive themselves n0-longer-bystanders/safe.

I think the fear generated will produce all sorts of interesting results. It will, I suspect make the hidden underpinning of that whol "Eager attitude towards work" visible - it'[s not just references that keep people working hard.

But the numbers are on the side of the hard-working poor.

DISCLAIMER: Although this has no animals in it - though i am thinking of Boxer - I am being a little bit satirical.

I think I know what you mean, but how much an employer values their staff is about so much more than hourly rates if pay. Say they pay minimum wage, but provide training, other development opportunities, decent holidays, solid contracts, flexible working... It goes a long way to mitigate the pay (although, usually you find employers who do all that offer decent pay as well.) Conversely, there are employers that pay good money, but demand a lot in terms of qualifications, expect work outside conditioned hours, slack off on staff development, blanket opposed to flexible working, shit H&S provision, bullying and harassment rife... Why be surprised when employees say "I couldn't give a fuck about you either."

I don't think this is really about sitting on your arse texting your mates when you should be working... More like doing what you're paid for and not a minute more. If an employer pays fairly, plays fairly, and is willing to bend the odd rule to make their employees' lives easier, they're much more likely to get 110% out of their workforce.

Hmm....what's the saying..'pay peanuts get monkeys'

That said if you want to progress regardless of the pay you have to make an effort and prove yourself.

Taking pride in your job gives you both satisfaction and others a positive impression.

But..if you work for a number of years busting a gut to 'prove' yourself to be constantly overlooked it can be soul destroying! bitter? me? never!

I went back to work after many years as a SAHM and carer for elderly relatives. All I could get was entry level jobs.
I work for just over NMW and take pride in my job and want to progress but getting anyone to take me seriously has been bloody hard work. I'm good at my job so management don't want to lose me in that position, without experience I can't progress or get a better job elsewhere. They have just decided to give me a supervisor job after nearly 7 years...no extra pay for now...I have to 'prove' I can do it keeps the wages bill down BUT I will now have something on my CV.

I can easily see why someone would 'switch off' and develop that attitude.

I think we can begin to see why there are all these wage subsidies for employers who don't want to pay a living wage.

It must be cheaper and more reliable than keeping a huge army.

And you can always ramp up house-prices/rents, so the rich will get their taxes back - by a slightly circuitous route, but still - anyway.

Some work is only worth minimum wage because it's low skilled and so many people are willing to do it. This will always be the situation as long as we have an over populated country and no need for any more low skilled work to be done.

I'm a higher rate tax payer and I agree with you OP. Minimum wage is disgustingly low. Even the trainees where I work are on at least £9 per hour and they are both under 21. How an adult with a family and responsibilities can manage on min wage I don't know.

There are some places I could agree with that sentiment.

Like BHS, I have no idea how anyone could work there while Philip Green the multibillionaire is sunning it on his 50k a day Carribean holiday - all while avoiding proper tax by claiming him and his wife live in Monaco.

Those people are scum - no living wage for the staff and a life of unimaginable luxury for him.

Katies ok I'll bite. I'm assuming you posted that just to be a little bit 'controversial' to us worthless lot who work in a low paid job. I have a degree but circumstances, personal and otherwise, have put me in this position and now I'm here, I will make it work because I love my job. Of course I wish it paid more, but it doesn't.

I work in care for very close to minimum wage and I can't have that attitude - the people I'm working with need me to put in 100%. It is a fucking laughable wage for the amount of work I do though and the only reason I'm sticking with it just now is the flexibility for childcare, I will be looking for better paid work ASAP - which is a real shame as I work with adults with learning difficulties who find the extremely high turnover hard to cope with.

Some work is only worth minimum wage because it's low skilled and so many people are willing to do it. This will always be the situation as long as we have an over populated country and no need for any more low skilled work to be done.

OK folks, who can see what is wrong with this statement?

I'll give you a clue, it's in that word "value".

Who thinks that Woowooowl's definition of "How we value" is complete?

OK, I'll phrase it a different way: can anyone think of something that lots of people can do but is still incredibly, very valuable?

Can anyone think of anything that is not scarce but is incredibly utterly valuable?

Can anyone think of anything that is valuable, just not in money terms?

Now, can anyone go back to Woowooowl's statement and think if valuing things by money value is the only way to value things?

And, if there are more ways, why is it that people so often get mixed up by seeing money value = only way of valuing?

And why do they so often take a capitalist valuation as a true valuation?