to think this hotel is being greedy?

[mandalaybay]

Ok, I know I am BU. BUT I really need advice and this gets a lot of traffic.

I am sponsoring a training event for a week at a hotel which is providing training on teaching children with autism. When I signed the contract, it was for a minimum chargeable number of 63. The event is split in 2: 2 days and 3 days. Some people come for the 2 day, some come for the 3. I have 68 people registered for the 2 day but only 49 for the 3 day.

I told this to the hotel 2 weeks ago, when numbers were still unconfirmed. I didn't get a response. Today, they have called to notify me they are charging my card in full for the event, and when I asked them to break it down, they are charging me for the 63 for the 3 day event (£1650), even though I only have 48.

Now, I understand that the minimum promised number was 63, however I hosted an event and used this same venue in October and brought them £12.5k. Not to mention the hotel rooms people booked and how busy their restaurant was as a result. This time I have paid £1400 in hotel rooms just for people I am bringing, and I know several more have also booked and paid for their own. So a TON of revenue for them. I asked them to please please charge me for the numbers I have as this is NOT a money making event (for me)...it really isn't, and I don't have the extra money to pay them. They said no. I then told them the type of event this is but I have a feeling the person I was speaking to can't make these decisions because she said to come in to the office Monday to speak to them and for now she will just charge for the numbers I have.

PLEASE help me negotiate this with them. I really don't have the money to pay them. How can I get them to either a) let me off or b) negotiate it down. Ideas I have are: 1) I will sign another contract to host another event there within the next 6 months (promising them about £7000), 2) meet me half way: I am over numbers on one event, but lower on another?

Has anyone ever been in this situation or work in an area where a customer is?

I suspect onesie is right, an admin person wouldn't have authority to agree a reduction in numbers. A manager should see the bigger picture, and if not go higher.

You seem very reasonable to me. Offering to confirm new dates within a set time period eg I will confirm a new conf to similar value by June. Or whatever could really help.

Glad they have but charged you for the disputed amount.

I think you are expecting the hotel to get far too involved in your business. Its a risk you took on when you entered into a contract with them, and expecting them to share your shortfall I think is unreasonable. You have made a big deal out of it being autism related, but there are many good causes held up and down the country and I'm not aware of special rules of contract applying to them.

I don't know the terms of your contract but it does seem to have been settled at the outset and the numbers and payment do seem to be conditions and not warranties and therefore of the essence of the contract. Its not up to them to tell you that your reduced numbers will be a problem, all they would be expecting to do is to provide whats in the contract and get paid, not keep an eye on your bookings numbers for you.

Its up to you if you can negotiate and I think you would need to be a bit of an expert in that field to do so. Its quite small amounts in terms of booking a hotel so it might be that they find all this hassle and uncertainty over bookings not worth their time in dealing with?

Didn't you take into account a possible shortfall in numbers when making the booking?

Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing? If only it was useful in the present and not just the past and future.

Plenty of hotels and conf centres I know would love a shot at hosting this booking. It's been a tough few years in the industry.

So you have some ideas for them on how you can promote additional guest spend. Are you in a position to make a future booking? Otherwise it's a bit of an empty promise.

If you want them to take you seriously I wouldn't talk about having a successful track record unless you have arranged several events that have been fully or overbooked. This is only your second booking with them so although technically you are a repeat booker I think you need to stress that you want to build an ongoing repeat business with them.

Tea, yes, I am in a position to make a future booking. Possibly several, I need to speak to the speaker of this event and see what he thinks. My last event was 20 people over. The first 2 days of this one is now 7 people over (and that is because 70 is their max capacity so I can't book any one else now). I will mention this because I think it does show this is a popular event.

I am now at 70 for the first 2 days and 51 for the last 3. So numbers are going up. I am really pushing this out now and will continue next week on the first course (when people see how amazing it is they will hopefully be up for a deep discount to carry on!). I HOPE I can get the hotel their numbers so we both walk away happy. I am also hoping that because they didn't demand the extra money they are going to be talking to me with an open mind on Monday.

I haven't got time to read the whole thread so apologies if this has been suggested. Not ideal but can you try to recoup a bit by offering cut-price places to local schools? PGCE course leaders? Any special schools near you? Offer two TAs for the price of one? I might have read this earlier and your reaction was concern if they found out. Is that better or worse than your current situation?

Also - go in and speak to the top man/woman personally. DOn't try to negotiate over the phone.

Its too last minute now Flossy. The course starts Wednesday. My only hope is getting people from the first to attend the second and negotiation with the venue. Thank you anyway and if I had more time I would be doing just what you've suggested.

How stressful OP!

What I don't understand is this: are you organising this as a private person? That seems so risky for you financially, and unusual. Or are you organising this as a charity/company?

You're completely unreasonable to agree something you can't pay for. That's it. If you needed to negotiate, that should have been prior to agreeing. You might not be making money, but they are a business.

Actually OP I think you have quite a good chance of success if you can meet the right person on Monday.

1. you are a good past customer
2. you are a nice and honest person who has always paid up promptly
3. your repeat course is oversubscribed up to your max and you have thus kept yr numbers and over for the hotel
4. your under subscribed course is not THAT much down. Look professional but not flash on Monday. Have your facts and figures properly worked out. Decide what your request is and be specific. "I would like to talk to you about paying for xx people on the xx dates. I understand that this is less than I originally anticipated (and ok, agreed, but don't ram it home) but on the other hand, I have over booked on yy dates and indeed, plan to re run the popular course again in six months time."
5. times are hard in the hotel trade and you have brought them some good business - they and you know this without going on about it.
6. I like the idea up the thread about putting some extra event on during the evening to drum up some extra cash for the hotel - offer this as part of yr negotiation.

Be positive about Monday. This will come good.
How about going onto Chat or Special Needs Chat and advertising the course at special prices to mumsnet people who live locally to the hotel and could come even for one of the shortfall days? (don't know if mumsnet hq will allow this but you could try!!)

I am wondering how you would feel if the hotel said they could accommodate 68 people and then could only squeeze 50 in on the day and you had people sat on the floor? You knew the terms...be nice and try to wriggle a bargain but you could be in on a losing wicket. Good Luck!

Thanks oneearedrabbit, much appreciated. Hope to sleep better tonight!

Is there anyone who produces a product or service for this market that would pay for a 15 min slot on the agenda to talk about their product and put up some banners or something?

good luck with your negotiations today, madalaybay. I think you need to follow oneearedrabbit's plan, it's a good, professional approach.

You could also try asking them to view the two bookings as one - with the two bookings you contracted a minimum of 63x2days and 63 x 3 days = total 315 day delegate rates. Ask if you can pay for any shortfall from this total instead.

I'm also a bit worried about how you are structuring what you are doing. It sounds to me as if you are indeed running a business, albeit one not intended to make a profit. If this is not through another business, or a charity (which it can't be, for you to be worried about personally owing them money) what you are doing is running a sole trader business organising seminars. You are offering a service. You are being paid for that service. Your intent or otherwise of making a profit is irrelevant. As far as the law is concerned, it's a business. You should be declaring this to the HMRC - if you really aren't making a profit then you won't have to pay any tax, but it still needs to be declared. Are you taking out any fees for yourself as organiser though?

Thanks kentish.

I'm here and have been to the office but haven't seen the person I dealt with Friday. I have emailed them and asked for a good time to meet and discuss this. No reply so far (and I sent this morning). So I'm not too concerned as they certainly don't seem to be!

I know what I'm doing regarding how I am running this event and my accountant takes care of reporting to HMRC (I won't owe, I'll lose, especially if I have to pay more).

When I first started reading your posts on Friday, I didn't realise you would not have emailed or phoned (to ask for an appointment) until Monday, mandalay!

The Events Manager and/or the Hotel Manager are not necessarily going to have an appointment available at 4 or 5 hours notice.

I must say I'm a bit surprised, given the worry you have faced, that you would not email until today. Hotels don't close over the weekend and, while it might well be that neither the Events Manager nor the Hotel Manager would be available on Saturday or Sunday, it does seem to me that a Monday appointment would have been much more likely if you had asked for it (say) 48+ hours in advance on Saturday morning.

I'm also at a loss to understand why you would email then wait half a day. Why not pick up the phone and ask to make an urgent appointment with either the Hotel Manager or the Events Manager. Then if you'd been told no such appointment was available, you would have been in a position to say that it was a matter of some urgency and so you did need to see one or other today, however you didn't mind when today they managed to slot you in, so if they could please give you an appointment.

I have read this thread with a great deal of sympathy for you and visualised you to be in a very stressful situation, with the hotel appearing to make no effort to 'meet a good customer halfway' but I do find my sympathy waning as I read this sort of thing "So I'm not too concerned as they certainly don't seem to be!"
That attitude is so unbusinesslike it beggars belief! In not meeting with you the hotel weren't showing a lack of concern. You had failed to make a proper appointment, despite having had almost 3 days to do so.

I hope by now you have had your meeting and things have been sorted out. If you haven't then I would suggest you pick up the phone and make an appointment.

Did you manage to meet someone fro the hotel, OP?

The sales manager and general manager would almost certainly not have been in the office over the weekend, so I really don't see an issue in making contact today rather than Saturday.

Whoever OP spoke to initially would have relayed the information regarding payment to somebody else anyway, and I'm assuming they hold a weekly sales meeting at which it would be discussed, so it should be on their radars.

And regarding appointments - absolute rarity that both sales manager and general manager would have completely full diaries. Sales manager would need to be available to deal with walk in enquiries and gm with ad hoc business.

Erm, read the thread before posting. They said to me on FRIDAY, that we will speak Monday morning. Said person has not been in the office today and I have kind of been tied up seeing to the needs to everyone (70 people plus the speaker), so haven't exactly been available to call and pin someone down. They are aware of the issue, however we have all been busy today. I'm as stressed as I was but really WHAT CAN I DO?? The person hasn't been available and hasn't responded to me and I have several other duties to take care of right now.

Also the person I spoke to Monday is the events manager. And there are 6 other events happening in this hotel right now. So no wonder she's unavailable.

*friday not Monday

"Erm, read the thread before posting. They said to me on FRIDAY, that we will speak Monday morning. Said person has not been in the office today"

Erm, I did read the thread, thanks, and I know the person you spoke to on Friday said about speaking on Monday, but I also assumed that you would require to make an appointment to speak to someone 'higher up' as you said "I have a feeling the person I was speaking to can't make these decisions" (or did I not read that).

"the person I spoke to Monday is the events manager"

Erm, again, I did read the thread and that is not what you said earlier, "I am hoping I will speak to someone more senior on Monday, (etc) Today I believe I spoke to just a worker who has no say"

I am still of the opinion that you should telephone and make an appointment.

Who am I supposed to phone exactly? They are all right there in the office, except the manager, who I didn't know until TODAY was the person I was speaking to Friday. She is the one I need to speak to and she isn't there. So I've left a message and email (twice now). What else can I do?