to have let dd speak her mind to dp?

[MrsHamsterCheeks]

Dd is 7, dp has been around since she was one. Recently she's been really off with him - not wanting him to take her to school, hold her hand,read to her and so on. She'd rather miss out on doing something she enjoys than do it with him. He seems to just grate on her. For example, if her breakfast is ready I'd tell her so, if she didn't go to eat it within a minute I'd check she'd heard then leave her to it - her own fault if it goes cold, though 99% of the time she goes within a couple of minutes.

Dp on the other hand would tell her it's ready, then keeping saying 'come on, breakfast is ready' every twenty seconds until she gets annoyed or even try and lead her to the table. She is very headstrong and likes to do things on her own terms but he just doesn't seem to get her anymore. By his method she usually leaves her breakfast then he'll offer her something else, so it isn't that I'm pandering to her - quite the opposite.

Today dp took our dd (14 months) out for a few hours as I had some work to catch up on. He then collected dd from school and took her to the dentist. When they returned I had cooked tea, I washed up, tidied, sorted out school bags, bathed the kids, did homework with dd, read stories with them both etc. He watched football and/or sat on his phone.

When he heard me telling dd2 that it was the last story I heard him creep upstairs and go and sit on dd1s bed as she'd been playing in her room. When dd2 and I entered dd1 glared at dp and said: 'i don't know why you're pretending you've been playing with me, mummy knows you've been downstairs on your phone you know.' He mumbled something about tidying up and she started ranting about how he hadn't tidied up, or washed up, or anything else because I'd done it as well as everything else while he played on his phone

She then proceeded to tell him that all he'd done that evening was upset dd2 by making her have tummy ache because all he'd fed her today was two lots of chips and a packet of crisps and by turning off the iPad quickly when he heard me coming downstairs so I wouldn't know he'd stuck dd2 in front of igglepiggle 'yet again.' I honestly never rant to or about dp so this tirade hasn't come from me.

Dp looked shocked and had a go at her for being a 'completely disrespectful little madame' and turned to me and said 'are you going to let her speak to me like this?' Dd2 was then sick so I had to sort her out but I could hear her and dp still bickering. I put dd1 to bed and said we'll talk in the morning as dd2 is still being sick and dp gone to work.

Aibu to have let her speak her mind? I feel it might do her good to get it off her chest as the resentment has obviously been building but then feel I'm undermining dp. However, everything she said was true so I can't tell her off for that. Maybe just speak to her about voicing her opinions more respectfully?? What do you think?

Duly noted Badger. If there are any circumstances that my dd brings to my attention that I have a lousy life partner I'll thank her for it and not question anything to get he facts straight?!?!?!
Just for the record, he dp can't be that ghastly. OP states quite clearly she has issues in even doing fun and pleasant activities with him. She's being mardy princess "not wanting him to read a book, take her to school or hold her hand."
It is possible that he is aware he can't do right for doing wrong so is giving the dd some distance.

Re. coming when called, for meals - I think it is rude not to come when you are called for a meal. It shows a lack of respect for the effort that has been put into making the meal. It means that either everyone else has to wait for the person whose book/game/tv programme is more important, or people don't get to start the meal together. It means that the food has started to cool before it's eaten, and that may mean it isn't as nice.

In this house, it means I have to wait in the kitchen, to hand over the meal (if we aren't eating round the table - sometimes we eat in front of the tv - so shoot me), because if I just leave their meal on the kitchen table for them to pick,up, it will have been snarfed by a greedy Labrador/lab cross/cat before they get to it.

It pisses me off when dh or the dses don't come when I call to say a meal is ready (barring unavoidable things like going to the loo, washing dirty hands, finishing a phone call - though that last should be wound up without delay, once the call's gone out that dinner's ready). To me, it says that my time and effort are not worthy of their attention, and that's rude.

i don't recall saying that anywhere but if you care to quote to me where i said one should never question what a child says to get the facts straight i'll stand corrected.

it's possible - it's also possible, and more fitting with the facts presented here, that he only does these things to be seen to be parenting for his partner then when she actually goes he ignores her and she has a miserable time. it's possible she is sick of colluding in pretence and lies and so would rather not do anything with him.

OP I think you should talk to your dd about why she seems to dislike your dp so much. I'm sorry, this would be setting off alarm bells for me especially as it seems a recent thing. It may be to do with dd2, but maybe not.

If she asks me to play and I'm hoovering with toddler on my hip while he's sat on his phone she is able to deduce that he is doing nothing and is justified in being annoyed

See, I don't think it is her place to be annoyed. It's YOURS. I agree with a pp who said you are using your dd as spokesperson.

You have tried & failed to get your dp to help you, so does that mean you have given up & just get on with it now? I wonder if what your dd sees in some situations is you being a martyr. So she feels she has no choice but to be an advocate for you.

And I hope you don't hoover with your dd2 on your hip while he plays games...because I would just say 'hoover or baby.'

You are both setting her bad examples. I don't think she should be told to shut up, or not be listened to, I just think she should be more respectful in her approach. I encourage my children to question things, but I expect them to do so in a polite manner & rant at me/dh.

Your post regarding what he did with dd2 (drove her around etc) and dd1 (dentist) shows a real lack of respect (on your part) for what he DOES do. If a guy came on here & said that all his wife did all afternoon (before she went to work) was settle the baby, pick up the older child & take her to the dentists, it would NOT go down well.

Do you minimise what he does to his face?

Wrt the meal situation, you are happy for her to come when called for meals, he wants her to come as soon as he calls.

That is what happens sometimes, as parents. We have different expectations. If he expects her to come as soon as called, that is what needs to be respected.

For example, when playing in the lounge I expect dd (5) to put one set of toys away before getting more out (so the train set that is all over the lounge needs to be packed away before the lego comes out). Dh doesn't care about this, so when I am out & I come home & it looks like a toy factory has thrown up in the lounge. I don't let it bother me, as dhe has been with the kids, so it's his rules.

Similarly, when he prepares a meal, he lays the table, when I do it, I expect one of the girls to do it.

I don't see any concern in him expecting her to come for a meal as soon as called.

She is very headstrong and likes to do things on her own terms My 5yr old is like that too, but it rarely happens because I am the adult & if I ask her to do something, I expect it to be done. Allowing a child to pick & choose what they do/don't do when asked by an adult is only going to cause issues as they get older & even more headstrong.

& not rant at me/dh.

Reading between the lines. She sounds quite mature and developed (some kids are, I have 1 out if 3 like this and must us not parenting). She's also being allowed go get out of hand. If this guess on, she ain't be managing to be polite at school as a teenager. I don't see a whole lot of future for you and dp. I think you are irritated with him, and she's picked that up. You have persistently defended her and picked on him. Either commit to him and sort out your parenting together, or split up before dd gets too comfortable being disrespectful of adults.

Badger, I can't continue to address your points anymore. You're so concerned about the facts that the dd highlights as golden you haven't even got them right when the OP has written them down for you to read! Re-read what the OP wrote about the baby being sick and see if it says anywhere that he was still on his phone whilst she was in bathroom dealing with the poor lamb.

The dd had her rant about dp's inadequacies, OP and dd2 went into dd1's room, words were spoken THEN dd2 was ill. The op's dp was not still on his phone downstairs!
You are distorting it all to suit what you want to think.

He didn't feed her crisps & chips WHEN she had a tummy ache. She had a tummy ache BECAUSE he fed her that (if we are to believe a 7yr that that is all he gave her, because according to the op he was only with the dd for 10 minutes, 5 of those were driving to & from the dentists & 5 of them in the dentist, so it doesn't leave lots of time for the 7yr old to see what her sister consumed 'all afternoon.')

I don't have any problem with a 7 year-old challenging an adult but in this case I agree with differentnameforthis that dd is being used as a spokesperson for the OP's dissatisfaction with the dp and that is not healthy. This might be unconscious on the part of the OP but still unfair on the child.

OP is listening out for the dp to 'creep' up the stairs, notes when he has to charge his phone after being out, watches resentfully as he is 'sat on his phone' while op cooks and cleans and sorts out the dc. It all paints a picture of someone silently fuming with resentment which they are not attempting to resolve on an adult level.

OP, if you feel your dp is lazy and a poor parent then you need to raise that with him directly rather than allow tension to poison the home for your dc.

HoneyBadger is right about women being primed to tolerate abusive relationships I think you can teach children to respectfulness without priming them for abusive relationships.

Different she'd already had a nap, which he knew, and didn't need another. Because of his driving around til she did sleep she was up until 11 p.m. And guess which one of us was up with her...?

He is great with the kids when we have days out or are all together. It's like he is just a spare part in the house. He struggles to spend time with the kids alone, no idea why. He says he misses me when we're not together (!) and is happier and therefore more playful when we are.

The change in dd not wanting him to hold her hand etc isn't her being a princess, it's him doing the sargent major thing again. If we approach a road I'd forewarn dd to swap her bag to the other hand so she can hold my hand for the road, which she'd do with no problem. He'llwait until they get to the road, try and wrestle the bag off her without a word, she will say he's hurt her fingers etc. And they'll argue which ends in him dragging her across the road by her sleeve. He doesn't 'pick battles' or observe ways I get her to comply (I'm fully aware she's awkward) he just continues to do things he knows will cause an argument.

Why does he have to try and wrestle the bag from her?

Why doesn't she just give it to him or swap it into her other hand? Surely she knows the road drill by now?

She's 7 years old, not 4.

I just think you have a 'tippy toe' way of parenting which is in stark contrast to his more 'normal' (imo) way.

Your DD is caught in the middle of one parent who seems to admire her bossy stubbornness, and another who doesn't.

Everyone who expects their DCs to jump when they say - if you were at a playpark would you just tell your DCs we are going now and expect them to leave straight away - or would you warn them first - we are going in 5 mins so last chance for a go on everything etc...
My DD1 is awkward and headstrong - we are very alike - I really understand how she feels. You learn to pick your battles or you will be constantly at war.

The thing about sitting down at the table. My DP does that to me! - if he is cooking with no warning he will say come right now dinner is ready. (And worse it often isn't, we have to sit around waiting). If you don't drop everything (say you are just finishing putting a load in the washing machine or something) and appear instantly he gets stroppy. It pisses me off...and puts my back up- if he warned me dinner in 5 mins and just said it is ready it wouldn't.
Also for DD1 I have learned that it is better not to tell her to do things directly. So in the morning don't say 'get out of bed' say 'you need to be getting out of bed'

And I think it is just personality/character - at 3 she stood up to a friend's father (ex navy officer!). She just repeatedly refused to do what he told her to do (I was there). Eventually he really shouted at her and she got a real fright and did as she had been asked. He was really upset with himself -had never shouted at his own like that - only rarely new recruits - he just couldn't believe a 3 yr old could be so defiant.
Before that becomes a reflection on my parenting abilities - DD2 complete opposite - so obedient I find it slightly scary!

(actually if I had only had DC like DD2 I wouldn't understand it either!)

My DC's do as I say. If we were at a park and I said come on now, they'd come. I'm not a militant mum, but they know I make the rules and they respect me enough to listen first time.

unlucky sorry but it seems like you're just pandering to your child, you can't say 'get out of bed'? you have to word it to something she finds more palatable? That's not being headstrong, that's being a pain in the arse for no reason and disrespectful.

i don't think manhandling a seven year old girl is the more normal way of parenting. i can't say i find 'get out of bed!' the appropriate way to greet a child in the morning either.

there are a lot of shades of grey between treating your child like a police dog in training that needs to be brought to heel and being an indulgent walk over who pander to their child.

Nursey -did you read the last line ....
DD1 after 13 yrs of battles and even after DP getting cross and talking about 'breaking her' it really isn't worth the fight! Wording things in a way that doesn't make her defiant is pure common sense....
I said we are very similar - I am teaching her the most important thing - to pick her battles. I can't describe it but I understand it.
And managed correctly, by her, it can be a great strength...

another thing i'm learning from this thread is how widespread that the parents prime job is to make the child submissive and obedient and that a 'good' child is one that does as they are told instantly and doesn't question adults.

i appreciate that's an easy child to manage (in the short term at least) but are they really the traits that make for happy successful adults? blind obedience and respect? unquestioning submission to authority?

reading a john holt book currently and had thought he might have been exaggerating but this thread is proving otherwise.

It's getting a bit absurd now isn't it?

Oh dear, well I thought I was a happy and successful adult, but obviously I can't be.

Because I was raised to do submit to authority, obey and respect my elders etc.

Is mumsnet the only place on the planet where teaching children to behave when an adult asks them to is considered actually damaging?

I agree 100% thehoneybadger,. I'm very glad mine were not 'good' children

TheHoneyBadger - there have been times when I've felt that an airhorn is the only reasonable way to get my teenage boys out of bed! But, being serious, what I usually said was something along the lines of, "getting up time now, ds1", or "time to get up now" - and my parenting was such that, although it wasn't phrased as a direct order, they did know that I meant them to do what I said, and generally they did.

OP your daughter sounds like me at that age. I was, and still am, strong willed and will call bullshit where I see it, did even at that age. My dad took a similar approach your DP is with DD, he would TELL me to do something and I would argue back, Mum would ASK me to do something and I would to it no problem. I have an older brother and could also see we were treated differently, dads family were a bit old fashioned in that boys were 'better' than girls and my brother got away with murder while I was yelled at if I didn't do the dishes within 20 seconds of being asked, or as I got older the minute I got home from school. I'm making it sound like I had a horrible childhood, I honestly didn't but certain parenting styles work on some kids and not others and I think it DP needs to consider his.

I actually think you need to encourage this side of your DD as it will stand her in good stead later on but talk to her about how she needs to be respectful and how she can put things differently. I went through my teenage years genuinely not giving a shit what people thought of me and happy in myself, compared to some of my friends who were crippled with self doubt and wanting to please everyone but the selves. That attitude stems from the strong willed side of me my mum encouraged when I was a kid. She will need that kind of attitude as she gets older.