To think that women are treated like shit by society?

[superstarheartbreaker]

Especially single mothers. I have been discriminated against several times about my lack of marital status.
I'm fed up with the whole way that society treats women and I'm worried about my dd.
I do love men and they make good friends but society gives out this message that it is important to be married and/ or in a relationship. Single women are seen as a threat and / or failures.
Women in relationships are often repressed. The media promotes this 'perfect' body image and porn.
I mean I know it's been done to death but why do we put up with it?
What is worse it that we are our own worse enemy. Women see each other as threats too.

or one word for you: islamophobia?

But the problems women face in this country pale into insignificance when you consider how women in other cultures have to live.

That's sadly true but it's no reason to be happy to stop at the point we've got to in this country. There's a saying 'The good is the enemy of the best' - most (not all) of us have good lives as women compared to the past or some other societies but that doesn't in any way mean we should now be content to put up with the shit that still exists.

Stop moaning
Yes... but only because we should be trying to change the status quo wherever necessary not just complaining about it.

It also seems to me that some of the criticisms made by some Islamists about Western society are as a result of our own types of sexism - porn, men ogling women, that kind of stuff - dealing with those issues should help remove some of their excuses for repressing women.

feelingvunerable spot on with the Dr./Miss/Mrs/Mr/Ms thing.

The Mr is nearly always 1st on the drop down list. Male is default. Woman is secondary.

Why not alphabetical?

Proud Ms here and cats bum faces galore when i announced I was keeping my own name.

"How will people know you are married" - Mil
"because i will tell them " - DH

Even more cats bum faces when DH then announced to his DM and DF that if we ever have a child together, the child will take my name because it is important to me.

"but how will people know the baby is yooouuurrrs" wails Mil
"I think i might have just explained that one mother" - DH

^ shite load of fuss over a hypothetical child.

I am sorry for posting. It was a knee jerk reaction about something that is close to my heart and painful to think about.

I know what it is to be treated very very badly as a girl and woman.

When I hear women complaining about the "miss, mrs, ms" issue it just seems pathetic and pointless. I mean, how does this REALLY effect the way we live our day to day lives?

Yes... but only because we should be trying to change the status quo wherever necessary not just complaining about it.

^ I completely agree Errol. Nothing ever changes without pressure.

Just because people all over the world are starving doesn't mean we should stop food banks in the Uk on the basis their poverty is not as "bad".

whatthe - Why should men remain the default just because "thats the way it has always been"

Granted, it isn't the most pressing Feminist issue out there but it is one of those tiny little incidents that you see almost every single day. All those little instances reinforce women as the secondary sex.

What, sorry you are having a hard time.

Some things are easier to change than others - most drop down boxes now have a choice of titles, for example - but the "unmarried mother" type stigmas do seem to be pretty "sticky" - the thread's about a range of things really.

Clearly you have completely missed the point calling this thread first world problems and telling us to stop moaning.

Yes our experiences aren't as bad as what some Muslim women go through but does that honestly make them invalid?

Just because we aren't going through extreme sexism doesn't make the fact someone on this thread was turned down for a job for being a single mum acceptable

whatthe
These things do matter. Why is my marital status relevant on every single form I fill out but my DH's isn't? It automatically puts women in a different catagory to men - some how being married or unmarried is of significance.

Its the small insidious things that actually cause problems because blatent sexism is easy to challenge. Why did a recent car advert I watched involve a women in a bikini at any point?

I am the bread winner in our family and DH was a SAHD unti the DC went to school. And for the record he is a muslim immigrant.

Captain - I can see your point. It should be in alphabetical order, in fairness.

BUT. I just don't think that in the grand scheme of things it is that big a deal. And why does everything have to be a battle. I'd bet my last pennies if miss/ms/mrs came before mr, not one living male person on the planet would notice. Because it doesn't actually matter.

I am sorry you have had bad experiences what the, but the miss, mrs and ms can still cause significant upset for some women.

I have a friend who has received extremely bitchy comments for being a single mum, where personally I applaud her for leaving her lazy cheating partner!

I think it's frequency based with many forms like UK and us often come first on a list of countries.

Wonder which comes first in a Mothercare form?!

My pet peeve are women who judge the fuck when another woman is a NRP.

Same group of women not batting an eye when it is the other way around.

The man is always heroic for raising their DC alone while for the woman it is expected.

YANBU its as if the only thing women could possibly do is to settle down with a man, reproduce and become a matriarch.

Then again, I know a lovely single man, handsome, not gay, good job, gentle personality, who doesn't want to settle down and have kids and is single, and the comments he gets are even worse than I have heard single women get.

If we are talking about other cultures where women are officially repressed (denied choices simply due to gender) then we ought to add Judaism and Mormonism and Scientology in the mix.

In our society the sexism (and indeed class culture) is no longer overt (as we have equality laws) they are now insidious and covert, in that the attitudes are still there even if the legal system says they should not be - so the fact the 60% of the workforce is women but only 12% of top earners are women can only be explained by covert sexism and assumptions about what skillsets and attributes a top earner needs-which seem to be "male" attributes.

It is interesting women and non whites only started to get jobs in orchestras when the American Union of Musicians demanded auditions were held behind curtains so the auditioning panel could only hear the music and not see if the person was male/female or non-white.
There was a statement that "everyone knows women can't play brass instruments" to stop women being in brass bands, and my favourite one "everyone knows that people prefer to hear male voices on the radio as womens voices are too shrill"
Neither of those statements has any basis in fact, but they used to get peddled a lot - until they were challenged.

Its actually very weird the way I have reacted to this thread.

My friends know me as a bit of a man hater . The LAST thing I want to to is argue with women about men. Usually I would completely and utterly agree with everything that has been said about the way women are treated unfairly (I still think the miss/ms/mrs thing is a bit of a silly thing to be offended by, but that's just me), but something in the thread triggered a personal outburst. I have calmed down now.

I totally agree that single mothers are treated unfairly and discriminated against, although to a much lesser extent than a couple of decades ago.

I have a genuine confidence that things will continue to get better for women. I think it is inevitable and is a part of human evolution, but will take time. However, we will get to a point where equality really is equality (at the moment its more of a case of "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others"). And hopefully other cultures will follow, eventually.

whattheholyfeck But it does matter to me.

I'm not bothered if other people think its petty/not worthy and I can understand why others think it isn't important; but without questioning or challenging the "minor" instances of sexism in society then the status quo will remain.

Not everyone has the confidence or the inclination to talk about the big "stuff". I know people who would have previously shut down if I had tried to engage them in topics such as FGM, rape or the sex industry but they are happy to discuss these "lesser" issues. These lesser issues are also appropriate for talking to DS about sexism in a way he can understand and see on a day to day basis.

I know the saying is not to sweat the small stuff but sometimes the small stuff is important and helps build a wider understanding about why things are the way they are. And hopefully how to change it.

yes to captain

Whatthe, I am hopeful of the same, that in our privileged position that we can get to a point where we are not stifled or relegated and that our success can be replicated across the world.

For a lot of people, they perhaps don't question what is wrong with their religious setup/life choices until they see the alternatives.

By giving women a better deal in the UK surely this will cascade to more open thinking and replication elsewhere.

I admit some of the sexist injustices can come across as petty. But we can't complain about them in every day life without risking like sounding like 'another feminist/man hater blah blah'

But all of these things add up and by not questioning them, they are another hurdle in the road to equality.

Fwiw: I have started scoring out and using Madam on Mrs/Miss/Ms as for some reason I think it is amusing and makes me sound swishier than I am. it also causes havoc with call centres not knowing how to address you.

whatthe
I think you have clearly been through a very bad experience and I am sorry that your childhood was blighted in this way. You are right that some women do go through some terrible things in the name of culture or religion. Its one reason why I am so passionate about the education of women because then they start to question the status quo.

However, I think it is dangerous to think that because women have more equality in this country they are equal. They are not yet.

Can't say our society places women as second best in my humble experience, no.

whatthe

When I read your first post I was going to say 'I bet you use the (ridiculously twattish imho) phrase "First World Problems" too...and low and behold!

It's not an either/or situation - If people are starving to death in Ethiopia does that mean nobody should care or do anything about child poverty in the UK?

People can fight for abortion rights and political representation AND care about the Ms/Miss, PinkStinks, etc too. Some causes may be 'bigger' than others but they are all linked.

Although I appreciate that you have come back onto the thread and expanded on your first opinion.