to be fed up with school thinking it is okay to keep giving my sons a bible and asking them to pray?

[soontobeslendergirl]

I don't have any issue with people following whatever religion or belief that they choose.

However, despite going to a non-denominational school, both my sons are now in possession of two copies (each) of the New Testament. These have been handed out at school assemblies by persons unknown and they have been asked to pray at the end.

I am sure that the school population wont be exclusively Christian.

We are of no religion, neither of my son's have any religious beliefs.

I'd like to remove them from worship in school, they don't want to make a fuss or be made out to be "different" by sitting out. I respect that, but it really annoys me.

The home and with parents is the place for this. I have no issue with religious education as this gives my children the opportunity to learn what others believe and to make their own choices, but worship is another matter.

Going by the fierce resistance to ending compulsory worship the churches are sure that it is effective. Also when it has come up before on here some parents have spoken as though not having it would force atheism on their children.

But it's not just how effective the attempt is, but that it is made at all, and even worse if outsiders are invited in to make use of the time. If other people's children are in your care and you are in a position of trust then any attempt to push your religion onto then should be offensive to everyone.

If anything you'd almost expect atheists to be the least bothered by it. Imagine the child of Muslim parents coming home to say "We prayed to Jesus because he is god" or to Christian parents "We prayed to Allah because he is the only god".

One defense is to teach your children not to trust teachers or take them seriously, but that would be a sad result.

The Head was formerly the Head at a Catholic High school

I freely admit I'm projecting here, but I've been made dubious because our RE teacher yaers ago was a catholic lady who clearly saw it as her role to promote her particular faith, even to the point of telling us we didn't need to discuss others

As a Christian myself (though a bad one) I'm fine with children being informed, but not with them being indoctrinated, and believe me this went massively into the area of indoctrination

Just one thing (and forgive me if it's irrelevant) but I know catholic schools have problems finding a large enough candidate pool for management positions - so I'm wondering why this head's in a non-denominational school now?

I haven't read all replies so I'm sorry if this has been said already.
Firstly. You are being rather petty IMO.
What's your grievance ?
Secondly. The giving of bibles is not an idea by M.Gove.
I left high school 20 years ago and remember receiving a copy of the New Testament along with everyone else in my year group.
If you don't want to listen to the prayer, they zone out, most dc are experts at it anyway.

drnoitall - then maybe it would have been worth reading the responses before posting?

Puzzled - the reason is that he is massively successful academically (his previous school was punching way above it's weight for the catchment) and this is a top 10 state school which was heading down the rankings and had to sack the incumbent head.

... the reason is that he is massively successful academically

In that case, the very best of luck to him; it sounds as if the school are fortunate to have him, though I'm sure the catholic sector will regret his leaving

The giving of bibles is not an idea by M.Gove

Mr Gove has nothing to do with the OP's DC's school.

I'm not religious, I'm a humanist.

My daughter knows my beliefs and knows she's free to make her own choices. She's wanted to go to church for the major Christian celebrations, Christmas and Easter, so I've taken her.

She knows that I respect the beliefs of others and that when they pray, I just quietly think.

Therefore I'm not concerned about my daughter, I do not believe that she shouldn't be exposed to religion, I therefore have taught her how to be polite in situations where she isn't a believer and so she can cope without embarrassment or feeling harassed.

It's our job as parents not to protect them from the world, but to cope easily when things aren't as we'd want them to be. In other words, life skills.

puzzled - he is due for retirement soon - trying to go out with a bang but the new CfE and the way schools are all interpreting it differently will probably feck up the stats.

I think this is bang out of order. I would speak to your kids about it and ask how they feel. If they don't want to pray, take them out of assembly. I chose not to attend religious assemblies at my non- denominational comp because I was an avowed atheist.

i'm in Scotland too, there is still a legal obligation to have collective worship although less frequently than in England, you have the right to withdraw as it is worship not RE ( which you also can withdraw from) worship normally includes prayer or reflection whatever the religion; so while you may not like it you can't really be surprised especially as you have deliberately chosen not to withdraw your children according to earlier posts, no body is actually forcing your child to pray are they someone else is leading the prayers if they attend they should just be quiet during prayer.

worship is more than studying, all schools are encouraged to have links with various groups within the community of the school and for many in Scotland this would be the local church of scotland minister (this is presbyterian not anglican) also many headteachers like the local minister doing this as it means they o not have to.

Gideons only go to schools which agree to them coming, many schools encourage pupils to keep the bible so they can use it as textbook in RE

YANBU to have the opinion that these rules should not exist, and that RE should be about comparative religion and what these believe

however YABU knowing these rules exist and opting to stay in worship to then complain about it when you could opt out

do you think a Christian family would be happy to have their children handed out copies of the Koran?

We're a Christian family and I'd actually welcome this. I'd discuss it with my children, in the context of understanding other faiths, and respecting others' beliefs. I'm not sure why you feel so threatened, OP. Would you have reacted like this if it had been a copy of the Qu'ran?

Why do posters (mainly from Christians it seems) keep asking if I feel threatened? In answer, No I don't, but that doesn't make it right. If it was one copy of the Qu'ran, I wouldn't be bothered either, just as I wouldn't be bothered with one copy of the bible.

It's the multiple copies and the presumptuousness of telling my child to pray that I am bothered about. If you can't see that then you maybe need to question your own attitude and not mine.

teacup - are they not being forced? they are being told in a school environment to pray, they are generally expected to do as they are told in school as the adults are in a position of power. I have also explained that I would withdraw them in a heartbeat, but it isn't solely my decision, they are the ones who have to deal with the consequences of being the ones that are standing out, therefore I choose not to impose my views on them as then I would be just as bad as the people I am complaining about.

Maybe if there was an opt in rather than an opt out it would be fairer?

I wouldn't object to my child being given any religious text, bobot. But how would you feel, as a Christian, if your young child came home and said they were a Muslim, or a Jew, or an athiest, because their school had told them that they were? Or worried that you were going to go to hell because you don't believe in what they are being taught in school. It's different if we are talking about a teenager making their own decision, but a six year old? Who then doesn't understand why their parents don't also believe what the school is teaching as fact.
Schools should be for education, not indoctrination. Parents should be able to choose how to introduce their beliefs, and not have to fight against the school.

I would object to my child being given a copy of any religious text, and I wouldn't feel threatened. What an odd thing to accuse the OP of

Teacup - yes, you can withdraw them from religious worship, but as this is often done during the wider school assembly it puts them in an embarrassing position of having to be taken out in front of their peers of several hundred children (in our case). I'm happy to have a general awareness of the different religions taught as part of RMPS, but I don't want religious assemblies involving praying or worship, no. And look - I'm not scared or threatened!

Maybe the only way to get the point across is to act like religious supporters.

So if we pick a Jewish school we can have a voodoo ceremonies for example. How to kill the cockerel and when to drink the blood. We could choose very young children because it would be a shame if they never got the chance to experience these things.

The Muslim school will be ok with us showing children how to pray to Hanuman I'm sure or better yet required to take part in the Hindu worship of dogs (who are divine). Just a few minutes at a time would surely not cause their parents any discomfort.

The Catholic school will be just fine with the prayer mats and the chanting that Allah is the only god.

And let's do away with this opting out since it's not really an option. Why should people be allowed to refuse to worship other people's gods. Do they feel threatened or something?

I suspect that very quickly this would be followed by overwhelming pressure to remove worship from schools, because as far a I can see people only support it because it's their religion being pushed.

One can feel offended by something without being threatened. It's also wrong of people to suggest that the school got someone in to talk about Darwin, etc., because Evolution and all that is based on FACT, whereas religion is based on faith, with zero evidence to back it up. It is offensive to put proven fact on the same basis as illogical beliefs, and dangerous for young minds to think that any of the things they are being taught are true, when only the non-religion fact-based, logical stuff is true.

Teaching children about different beliefs and religions is fine. Getting them to worship, and there being a general atmosphere of presuming that there is some form of deity and that one should believe in him/her/it/them/whatever, is what is offensive and wrong. This is for two reasons: 1) It teaches children the precise things that I, personally, do not want for my child; to suspend critical faculties, to not think analytically, perceptively or logically, to be superstitious and think there is a supernatural world, and to feel that he is being watched and judged and moulded by a paternalistic, punative force. It also suggests that morality and goodness can only be driven by adhering to religious commands, which is absilute bollocks, and also, most of the stuff in religious texts is absolutely irrelevant to modern life, often downright offensive and backward. 2) God doesn't exist. What sort of person would want their child to believe in something that doesn't exist, to delude themselves?! I don't want my child believing in things that don't exist, or being trained to be illogical, or to refuse to understand or accept the truth about life and our world, that's demeaning him. Tell kids that people believe in all sorts of things, but never present any of them as the truth in a school setting. Only present as true that which is proven (ie not religion).

Very well said oxfordbags. It's posts like your's that deserve a thanks/like button. I could never have explained that as well as you have but it's exactly how I feel.

As a result of his RE lessons at school, my 5yo DS tells me he is a Christian.
He also believes he is a Pokemon.
He sees no conflict between these two beliefs. And I'm not going to dignify either by making a fuss about it, I believe that he will grow out of these ideas if I smile, nod and ignore.

Exactly Oxford.

I want schools to teach facts, rather than ideologies. They can outline the different religions and political systems/parties, but I don't want the DCs worshipping a man made deity on the say so of the school, any more than I want them worshipping the fairies at the bottom of the garden.

I would not worry too much. I went to a fairly strongly CofE primary and a VERY Catholic secondary. Priests in the family, the whole shebang. I'm about as non-religious as they come. I think a bit of religious education is healthy anyway, fuel for arguments later in life :)

All state schools BY LAW should have a collective act of worship - but most ignore it.

It will have been the Gideons that have given the books out. We have it every year - they come into assembly (Year 7) hand out the bibles, talk about the Christian faith and they do pray at the end but the children are not forced to.

Faith schools shouldn't be allowed to indoctrinate either, IMO. We're not just talking about a handful of faith schools for children of the faithful - many many parents really have no choice about sending their child to a (state funded) faith school, as they are all over the place, particularly in rural areas.
I really don't get it that people who send their children to school to learn things (based on fact) are totally ok with their children being told that Christian beliefs are fact based, by the same teachers who teach them everything else.
My DD, at a faith school, was recently told by her teacher that if she is scared during a storm she comforts herself that the noise of thunder is God clapping, and lightning is God taking a photo (I couldn't help expanding on this theme, with rain and wind ).

vrta - who is worried? I'm annoyed, not worried. If they want to believe or join a religion, they are welcome to.

intheenddotcom - it's Scotland not england.

Think yourself lucky, on one memorable day my DD1 was told to pry for the wisdom to make wise decisions like Thatcher

Still makes me seethe that does

Pray. Not pry