To really want to say something to these abortion protestors?

[Crocodileclip]

Firstly, I know I will probably never say anything as I appreciate that the protestors have the right to protest but it really pisses me off.

A small group of people have been protesting outside the Marie Stoppes clinic in Belfast since it opened in 2012. They stand outside the door on the days it is open holding anti abortion posters and trying to gather signatures for a petition. I pass them on my way to get to the station at home time and every time it annoys me. I can't imagine how offputting they would be if you were young and scared and just wanting some advice. Lots of pics of aborted foetuses etc. I find it intimidating enough myself and I am just walking past. I actually put my head down and walk quicker so that nobody asks me to sign the petition.

I'm currently pregnant with my second and am lucky never to have been in a position where abortion was an option but am of the opinion that there are situations in which it may be the best option available.

The clinic itself operates within NI law so only offers abortions up to 9 weeks and as far as I know is the only such clinic in Northern Ireland. I think I would be ok with the protestors doing their stuff elsewhere in the city centre it is the fact that it is just outside the only entrance to the clinc that makes me irrationally angry. Does this happen at other Marie Stoppes clinics elsewhere in the UK?

Of course women should be able to have an abortion for whatever reason. Nobody should be made to carry and give birth to a child, against her will.

I disagree with Grennie, no one is speaking up for unborn children if women have abortions whenever they like, for whatever reason. What about contraception, what about abstinence and what about self control?
Unpopular in these times but to avoid harming unborn children it might be good to think about such things.

OMG women having abortions whenever they like for whatever reason - the very thought

thankfully they are allowed to :)

But Varya, your pro-life stance doesn't seem to be about speaking up for unborn children either. Since you agree with abortion in cases of rape but don't agree with it when women haven't exhibited 'self control', it appears that your anti abortion views are more concerned with punishing women for daring to have sex.

if women have abortions whenever they like, for whatever reason. What about contraception, what about abstinence and what about self control?

Sorry, Varya, but this comes over as a typical anti-abortionist's response and smacks of misogyny to me. Its implicit message is that if you give women enough freedom to do what they want, they'll be running around getting pregnant left, right and centre and demanding abortions on a whim and without a second thought. This is one of the most unpalatable parts of anti-abortion rhetoric IMO.

I see gordy and basgetti got there first. Sorry for cross-post!

women will be wanting to vote next - you mark my words ...it's a slippery slope

What happens when people are human and don't measure up to those ideals varya? Then they get punished. That seems an unfair stance for society to take. We let murderers out of prison eventually iyswim.

Janine,

"at least partly as a result of the abortion laws in Ireland"
This is not a fact.

"I note that you haven't engaged with my points about the HSE report - why are you quoting only some of the findings?"

You only mentioned some of the findings. I addressed your point re 'offering management options." Re the law - it was concerns about interpretation of the law rather than the law itself - which does allow for abortion where the mother's life was at risk. When she was initially assessed, the consultant did not think her life was in danger.

Why are you only quoting some of the findings and overlooking things like:

"staff did not adequately monitor her deteriorating condition"

"existing clinical guidelines related to the management of sepsis and septic shock were not correctly adhered to by staff."

"There was a lack of recognition of the gravity of the situation and of the increasing risk to the mother which led to passive approaches and delays in aggressive treatment."

"thankfully they are allowed to"

Only to 24 weeks.

"it appears that your anti abortion views are more concerned with punishing women for daring to have sex."

"We let murderers out of prison eventually" There are whole-life sentences now. (off topic but just correcting)

This is not a fact.

On what basis are you stating this is not a fact? It was set out in the HSE report.

On what basis are you stating that it is? The law allows for women to have an abortion where their life is at risk. Are you questioning the decision of her consultant?

You have not addressed my question about why you are overlooking the other findings about inadequate monitoring, mismanagement of sepsis and septic shock and lack of recognition of increased risk to Savita (due to the former.)

On what basis are you stating that it is?

Er, the HSE report, as I just stated. Which identified three causal factors - inadequate assessment, failure to offer all management options, and non-adherence to clinical guidelines re sepsis. There was medical mismanagement, but (and here is the crucial bit) it was not the sole factor in the patient's death.

"thankfully they are allowed to" Only to 24 weeks

no to TERM a fact you repeatedly ignore - suprisingly

Oh come on. How many abortions have been to term? That would only happen in massively exceptional circumstances e.g. a baby is close to death and it is killing the mother. I have never heard of any cases in the UK that have been anywhere near this late on.

A late term abortion in England and Wales, is 13 weeks plus. In Scotland it is 12 weeks plus. At this stage, abortions are usually because of severe disabilities/illnesses that could not be tested for until a later stage.

it's not a question of how many - the continued assertion that the limit is 24 weeks is incorrect

a tiny percentage of abortion take place past 16 weeks in reality

Getting back to the OP, I think protesters with posters of near term foetuses implying that these are first trimester foetuses simply have no claim to the moral high ground. They are lying, simple as that. No matter what they believe, two wrongs do not make a right.

I also object to groups like SPUC coming into schools unless this is done in tandem with a pro choice group, or at the very least someone who will present factual information and will challenge their lies hard and fast.

gordy "OMG women having abortions whenever they like for whatever reason "

Only until 24 weeks and even then they have to meet criteria so technically it is not 'for whatever reason'. So I'm not 'repeatedly ignoring' anything. You do realise that you can't have an abortion to 24 weeks 'for whatever reason' don't you?

Janine, "The interpretation of the law related to lawful termination in Ireland, and particularly the lack of clear clinical guidelines and training is considered to have been a material contributory factor in this regard."

Grennie, a late term abortion occurs after 20 weeks. There were 2860 from 20 weeks onwards in England and Wales in 2012. 16,674 from 13 weeks. 7,431 from 16 weeks.

"or at the very least someone who will present factual information"

Like what? That it's just a 'bundle of cells?'

You do realise that you can't have an abortion to 24 weeks 'for whatever reason' don't you? In the UK*

erm okay then - I was, however, quoting someone else there :)

What do your 'friends' think it is, if not a bundle of cells?

gordy, so you do know that women can't have abortions 'for whatever reason' to term then and you accept that I'm not 'repeatedly ignoring' anything?

TheOriginal,

A life.

There were 143,364 abortions in 2012 in En gland and Wales from 3-9 weeks. So that is a very small percentage of abortions that are late term.

Grennie,

That doesn't mean that they were in 'massively exceptional circumstances' or that the baby was 'killing the mother' or that the abortions 'were because of severe disabilities/illnesses that could not be tested for until a later stage.

Most of those tests aren't carried out until the 20-22 week scan anyway.