To really want to say something to these abortion protestors?

[Crocodileclip]

Firstly, I know I will probably never say anything as I appreciate that the protestors have the right to protest but it really pisses me off.

A small group of people have been protesting outside the Marie Stoppes clinic in Belfast since it opened in 2012. They stand outside the door on the days it is open holding anti abortion posters and trying to gather signatures for a petition. I pass them on my way to get to the station at home time and every time it annoys me. I can't imagine how offputting they would be if you were young and scared and just wanting some advice. Lots of pics of aborted foetuses etc. I find it intimidating enough myself and I am just walking past. I actually put my head down and walk quicker so that nobody asks me to sign the petition.

I'm currently pregnant with my second and am lucky never to have been in a position where abortion was an option but am of the opinion that there are situations in which it may be the best option available.

The clinic itself operates within NI law so only offers abortions up to 9 weeks and as far as I know is the only such clinic in Northern Ireland. I think I would be ok with the protestors doing their stuff elsewhere in the city centre it is the fact that it is just outside the only entrance to the clinc that makes me irrationally angry. Does this happen at other Marie Stoppes clinics elsewhere in the UK?

[pommedeterre]

It doesn't look like a human. I've seen it and it doesn't.

[KateUnrulyBush]

:)

[twofingerstoGideon]

bumbley "it is not always my opinion that I am expressing" and/or it is not always just my opinion... this, along with "some people think..."

....could be construed as 'sweeping generalisations', which you're always accusing other people of making.

For example, You accused me of making a sweeping generalisation when I said Anti-abortionists are, I have found, very good at insinuating that women have abortions for 'frivolous' reasons. Please note the use of 'I have found' which loosely translates as 'in my experience'. Whether you believe me or not, I have frequently heard anti abortionists use the argument that if abortion wasn't limited, as it currently is, women would be having what they call 'social' abortions right up to term just because they can.

[bumbleymummy]

pomme, the old nature vs nurture argument. :) Epigenetics wouldn't exist without genetics though.

pointy, on this thread, the initial discussion was about protestors. I am not a protestor so I could only speak about them in the third person and talk about what they may think/believe in an attempt to explain where they may be coming from.


"do you consider the MAP a form of abortion?"

Short answer, no ;)

(Additional info) I tend to be more on the side of implantation so I wouldn't class treatment for ectopic pregnancies, the MAP and use of the coil as abortion.

pomme, it may not look human but it is still genetically human.

[twofingerstoGideon]

If your child becomes disabled it would not be ok to terminate their life even if you couldn't make the sacrifices necessary to care for them. A life is a life.

This is not at all the same thing as discovering that a fetus is severely disabled. Of course, you would not terminate the life of someone who becomes disabled (so long as they are able to continue breathing by themselves. Cutting off life support is another argument...) Terminating an already living person is a completely different scenario as one involves someone with personhood and the other involves a fetus that doesn't yet have personhood.

[bumbleymummy]

two fingers, no, because I use the word some not all as those who have been accused of sweeping generalisations have done. Even though you used 'in your experience' you were suggesting that all those in your experience are like that. Yet you have just gone on to say "I have frequently heard anti abortionists" which suggests that not all of them have said this.

[twofingerstoGideon]

"Good for you for having the physical/mental/financial resources to do that. Not everyone does."
I think you've misunderstood me. My stance on abortion is not dependent on my physical/mental/financial resources.

Again, good for you. Most people don't just take a 'stance' when considering whether they can bring another child into the world. They consider the wider picture and how it will impact on their physical/mental/financial resources and those of their wider family. Personally, I think that should be their decision, seeing as they're the ones who have to live with the consequences for the rest of their lives.

[bumbleymummy]

twofingers, it just boils down to your interpretation of life being different to someone else's.

[twofingerstoGideon]

two fingers, no, because I use the word some not all as those who have been accused of sweeping generalisations have done. Even though you used 'in your experience' you were suggesting that all those in your experience are like that. Yet you have just gone on to say "I have frequently heard anti abortionists" which suggests that not all of them have said this.

This makes no sense.

[twofingerstoGideon]

So the MAP is okay, but any other termination isn't?


twofingers, it just boils down to your interpretation of life being different to someone else's.
It is not just 'my' interpretation of life, is it? It's one that's recognised in law.

[bumbleymummy]

twofingers, I consider those things too and then I figure out how to accommodate another life into it. Life can throw many things at you, in most other cases you just have to find a way to accommodate them/work around them/whatever. Some people (me included) just treat unplanned pregnancy in the same way because abortion is not something we would consider.

[bumbleymummy]

two fingers, I explained why I don't think the MAP is the same as a termination. Are you trying to be 'goady'?

Read the last post more slowly. It does make sense.

[twofingerstoGideon]

No. Still doesn't. And don't be so fucking patronising.

[confuddledDOTcom]

I don't agree that genetics is what makes a person, otherwise identical twins would be identical in every way, I believe the soul makes us us and isn't genetic.

I do believe MAP is abortion and I limit my contraceptive choices that I feel are abortion - this actually severely limits my options as I'm a thrombophiliac so naturally limited. I had a debate with a Sikh* GP who said she used to think like me but changed her mind that some of them aren't, but IMO if they prevent implantation then they are. A potentially healthy viable foetus has been prevented from growing. Some people believe preventing the two getting together in the first place is as good as abortion.

*Only mentioned her faith because we were having a faith based discussion, both of us feeling our faith made abortion wrong.

You believe in abortion up to your own arbitrary point.

[bumbleymummy]

Two fingers, don't be so dismissive, rude and goady.
(And it does make sense)

[bumbleymummy]

Confuddled, even identical twins have genetic differences - that makes them different people. I don't think this is against the idea of a 'soul' either. I have heard twins used as part of the argument towards implantation rather than conception as the start of life though. Another argument is that they aren't actually viable until they have implanted. (Many fertilised eggs don't) . I do see where you're c

[bumbleymummy]

Stupid phone...

See where you're coming from though.* although I can't see how preventing the two coming together is abortion.

[confuddledDOTcom]

They're not viable when they implant though, legally not until 24 weeks although some do from earlier (as an "impatient mum" I used to be able to tell you all the milestones, my MWs thought it was funny).

I don't see prevention as abortion but some people do.

I don't think a soul (or whatever term anyone wants to use) comes from our genes. I think if that was the case there isn't enough difference between twins to make their personalities so incredibly different as often happens.

[NobodyLivesHere]

Bumbley- you are going round in circles, I KNOW abortion isn't without it's ramifications, no option when you find yourself unexpectedly pregnant is an 'easy' option. That's precisely why I am pro-choice.

I only mentioned abortion 'on a whim' to illustrate a point that women do not make the choice lightly. if you are asking me if I think murders are 'worse' if they are planned and considered than if they happen on the spur of the moment, then yes, I do. As does the law and is why we have manslaughter and murder laws. But that doesn't have a single thing to do with abortion?!

I know post 24 week abortions are illegal. That was my whole point 34 pages ago! That when protesters use term baby pictures to shame women they are being dose genius at best. (I will have to take your word on the US situation was I talking about the UK)

[twofingerstoGideon]

two fingers, I explained why I don't think the MAP is the same as a termination. Are you trying to be 'goady'?

No. Just trying to fathom the logic in that, given the 'life begins at conception' argumentt'. And don't accuse me of being 'goady'.

And, no, your previous comment to me still does not make sense. Perhaps it does to you, but it makes none whatsoever to me.

[NobodyLivesHere]

Dose genius..really phone?! Disengenuous.

[NobodyLivesHere]

And two fingers is correct, I've no idea what that post means.

[confuddledDOTcom]

twofingers/ nobody, she's saying life from implantation and MAP prevents implantation so doesn't abort a baby.

[twofingerstoGideon]

Thanks, Nobody. I think it's part of bumbley's modus operandi, actually: deliberate misinterpretation of other people's posts, accusations of 'goading', claims that she is always reasonable in the face of other people's 'rudeness', provocation, etc., but no apparent awareness of how goady and patronising her own posts might be perceived. Frankly I think she's being deliberately disingenuous.

[twofingerstoGideon]

Thanks, confuddled, but this is the post I don't understand despite 'reading it slowly' as advised by bumbley.

two fingers, no, because I use the word some not all as those who have been accused of sweeping generalisations have done. Even though you used 'in your experience' you were suggesting that all those in your experience are like that. Yet you have just gone on to say "I have frequently heard anti abortionists" which suggests that not all of them have said this.

I'm out now.