To really want to say something to these abortion protestors?

[Crocodileclip]

Firstly, I know I will probably never say anything as I appreciate that the protestors have the right to protest but it really pisses me off.

A small group of people have been protesting outside the Marie Stoppes clinic in Belfast since it opened in 2012. They stand outside the door on the days it is open holding anti abortion posters and trying to gather signatures for a petition. I pass them on my way to get to the station at home time and every time it annoys me. I can't imagine how offputting they would be if you were young and scared and just wanting some advice. Lots of pics of aborted foetuses etc. I find it intimidating enough myself and I am just walking past. I actually put my head down and walk quicker so that nobody asks me to sign the petition.

I'm currently pregnant with my second and am lucky never to have been in a position where abortion was an option but am of the opinion that there are situations in which it may be the best option available.

The clinic itself operates within NI law so only offers abortions up to 9 weeks and as far as I know is the only such clinic in Northern Ireland. I think I would be ok with the protestors doing their stuff elsewhere in the city centre it is the fact that it is just outside the only entrance to the clinc that makes me irrationally angry. Does this happen at other Marie Stoppes clinics elsewhere in the UK?

Maid, my first line says 'abortion is allowed in Ireland when the woman's life is at risk.' You know what abortion is, right? Would you say it is 'actively seeking' the death of the foetus? My second sentence covers the situations where the foetus may die as result of treatment of the mother but they are still allowed to provide that treatment to save the mother's life. Perhaps you should read things a bit more carefully before calling them 'nonsense'

Let's assume I know what abortion is, huh, so cut the bollocks.

I do not think that abortion actively seeks death of the fetus as the primary aim. I think that the death of the fetus is concurrent with the process, but that's unavoidable up to a certain timepoint.

You have vigorously argued that the primary aim of elective abortion is to actively seek the death of a fetus. Yet your argument surrounding the example of potential maternal mortality suggests that you consider the death of the fetus as a secondary outcome to efforts to preserve the right to life of the mother, even when that effort to preserve the right to life of the mother may, before the onset of treatment, actively kill the fetus.

And this right to life of Mum. That's interesting, isn't it? You've always argued that the right to life is actually the right not to be killed, rather than to right to not die - I agree. So why is Mum's right to life suddenly more important than that of the fetus? Of course, in acute conditions at early stages, the choice is to save one or save none, so it's a no brainier. But what of longer term, more chronic conditions, conditions where Mum is expected to make it through the pregnancy and deliver safely, but with a far bleaker outlook than if she terminated and received treatment immediately. Why do we not leave Mum without treatment - after all, nobody has the right not to die? But the fetus has the right not to be killed? Really means that no pregnant women expected to live beyond delivery should be doesn't it? (And that may be what you think).

So many competing rights....

Final big para....should be treated, doesn't it?

Whatever the views on the subject at hand, I suspect we all agree that posting from mobile devices is horrible.

"I do not think that abortion actively seeks death of the fetus as the primary aim. I think that the death of the fetus is concurrent with the process, but that's unavoidable up to a certain timepoint."

That's your opinion. You're entitled to it, of course, although I do wonder how many abortions are carried out with the aim of maintaining the life of the foetus particularly after the 'timepoint' when this becomes avoidable.

"your argument..."

Iyrc I was clarifying the laws around abortion in Ireland for confuddled. ie that Ireland does allow abortion when the mother's life is at risk and that a woman can be treated during pregnancy even if the foetus' life may be put at risk.

"Really means that no pregnant women expected to live beyond delivery should be treated doesn't it?"

I think that is why they make the distinction about it being the life rather than the health of the mother being at risk.

"I suspect we all agree that posting from mobile devices is horrible."

Agreed.

Sorry first para should read...particularly after the 'timepoint' when the death of the foetus* becomes avoidable.

Truffleoil I hope you've been challenged on your comment before now. How many women will have an abortion after 24 weeks for anything other than medical reasons? You can't think of a good enough reason? how about incompatible with life? not can't be arsed to have this baby now

Bumblymummy How about just for once supporting women? alien concept

I put the women first, before her fetus. If she wants an abortion, she should have one.

Campaigning outside abortion clinics is the wrong place to campaign.

There needs to be a law change to prevent the harassment of women who are already making/going through an already difficult decision.

lucy, truffle said she can't understand a 'truly elective' abortion past 24 weeks. Read posts more carefully.

As for your comment to me. Sometimes people think other things are more important that just blindly supporting a decision someone makes simply because they are a woman. I'm sure that there are certain decisions that you wouldn't support a woman for but I doubt that means that you never support women.

Grennie, right up to term?

That's your opinion. You're entitled to it

But it's also your opinion, if the abortion is being carried out to preserve the mother's right not to die (which you have repeatedly said is not the same right as the right to life).

No, maid. It is not my opinion. I suggest you read my posts more carefully.

Maid, can you answer this for me? "how many abortions are carried out with the aim of maintaining the life of the foetus particularly after the 'timepoint' when this becomes avoidable."

If a fetus is in a woman's body, it is her choice.

In terms of right up to term, yes. A baby would have to be very severely disabled not to survive at this stage. I am not advocating killing babies that are born alive. If a child dies inside of you for example, a week before your due date, then for your own safety an induced abortion needs to happen.

Grennie, "A baby would have to be very severely disabled not to survive at this stage."

Grennie, I'm not really sure what you are saying about abortion here. You know what abortion is don't you? It is not just induced delivery. The foetus is actively terminated inside the uterus.

"If a child dies inside of you for example, a week before your due date, then for your own safety an induced abortion needs to happen."

Still birth is not the same as abortion!

It's telling that every pro-lifer I have ever met has also been vehemently in support of the death penalty.

I don't support the death penalty. I don't know too many people who do actually.

I stand corrected, Bumbley.

I suppose that shows that it's unwise to make sweeping assumptions about other people's lives and situations, then?

No, maid. It is not my opinion. I suggest you read my posts more carefully

Um, your posts are somewhat difficult to elicit meaning from. Apologies if I struggle to follow you.

So you do NOT sanction abortion to preserve the life of the mother?

I suppose it shows you shouldn't use one person's opinion/belief to make sweeping assumptions about all their other opinions/beliefs and the opinions/beliefs of all other people who happen to share that one opinion/belief.

how many abortions are carried out with the aim of maintaining the life of the foetus particularly after the 'timepoint' when this becomes avoidable

None. I don't believe our current medical technology can maintain the life of the fetus without impinging severely on the woman's right to bodily autonomy.

In theory, were it possible to, say, teleport the fetus out of her uterus and incubate to term, the right to bodily autonomy is preserved under my current definition (where it is only applied to indicate the right not to be pregnant/give birth/damage my body in any way) or has to change to allow bodily autonomy to include the right not to be a genetic mother. I'm unsure what my feelings are on this theoretical scenario.

Maid, your posts aren't exactly to easy to follow sometimes either but I at least make an attempt to read what you are writing. You don't seem to have afforded me the same courtesy if you have come to the conclusion that you have. May I direct you again to my post at 23.14. Read what is actually written there rather than what you think is written there. Look back to my post at 16.18 as well.

I will answer your last question after you have answered mine. This isn't an interrogation. It's a discussion. I would like some answers too.

sorry, x-post. Thank you for that. Now, if you believe that then I'm not sure why you think that abortion seeks the death of the foetus as its primary aim.

Mmm. Not a fan of irony, then. Oh well, better get back to work.

As for abortion to save the life of the woman. No, it is not a case of preserving her 'right not to die'. If it is a case of the pregnancy actually killing her then it is a case of preserving her right not to be killed. That is why I pointed out the difference between 'threat to the life' and 'threat to the health'. Where it is possible to preserve the life of both (ie where the foetus is at a viable stage) then I think that should be the first choice.

fair, no, not a fan of people trying (and failing) to twist things to try to make a point. I haven't made sweeping generalisations about anyone on this thread based on their opinion of abortion.

Also worth mentioning I think that in soem cases(e.g. The recent case of Robyn Benson) the life of the mother can be preserved to preserve the life of the foetus.