To really want to say something to these abortion protestors?

[Crocodileclip]

Firstly, I know I will probably never say anything as I appreciate that the protestors have the right to protest but it really pisses me off.

A small group of people have been protesting outside the Marie Stoppes clinic in Belfast since it opened in 2012. They stand outside the door on the days it is open holding anti abortion posters and trying to gather signatures for a petition. I pass them on my way to get to the station at home time and every time it annoys me. I can't imagine how offputting they would be if you were young and scared and just wanting some advice. Lots of pics of aborted foetuses etc. I find it intimidating enough myself and I am just walking past. I actually put my head down and walk quicker so that nobody asks me to sign the petition.

I'm currently pregnant with my second and am lucky never to have been in a position where abortion was an option but am of the opinion that there are situations in which it may be the best option available.

The clinic itself operates within NI law so only offers abortions up to 9 weeks and as far as I know is the only such clinic in Northern Ireland. I think I would be ok with the protestors doing their stuff elsewhere in the city centre it is the fact that it is just outside the only entrance to the clinc that makes me irrationally angry. Does this happen at other Marie Stoppes clinics elsewhere in the UK?

Janine, I commented on the tragic case of Savita earlier. It was a case of mismanaged miscarriage.

Or you could say it was a case of a woman having her stated wishes utterly disregarded, ie. being allowed no autonomy over her body.

Emotions post abortion are very tricky. Not least because you still have huge amounts of pregnancy hormones I. You and your body thinks you have had a miscarriage.

Ah yes, I forgot that you think your opinion on the precise circumstances of the Savita case is more accurate than that of the director of the National Maternity Hospital. Remind me - are you an obstetrician? Or a doctor of any kind?

two, I did address this earlier. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you missed it. A patient can request treatment for a condition but that does not mean that the doctors have to provide that treatment. In this case, the doctors did not think the treatment that Savita requested was necessary.

Not sure what happened there. Just your body thinks you have had a miscarriage.

Pro life sentiments and judging definitely doesn't help.

I'm sure they are pomme. Sometimes they last several months, years or a lifetime despite people thinking they 'made the right choice' at the time.

Are you Janine?

"A HSE Clinical Review report was published in June, which found inadequate assessment and monitoring and a failure to recognise the gravity of the situation and the increasing risk to her life."

"In the case of Mrs Halappanavar, the report said there was a failure to recognise she was developing an infection and to act on her deteriorating condition.

It found that University Hospital Galway did not have effective arrangements to regularly record and monitor her condition and that the management of the delivery of maternity services was not consistent with best practices."

I still think I made the right choice bumbley!

So, it's not 'my opinion'. hth

Would you presume to say that everyone feels that way pomme?

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you missed it.

Did you mean to sound so patronising?

I'm perfectly well aware that the doctors aren't obliged to provide an abortion, but I believe that morally she should have been allowed the final say. It was bad luck that she was in a backward-thinking country where the church wields too much power and is happy to see the odd female death as collateral damage.

I promised myself upthread that I wouldn't engage with you, so this is my last response to you on this thread.

No but in my opinion better for me to suffer than to out massive pressure on my health, children and work.

It wasn't the right time to have a third child and me having to go through something awful (partly as pro lifers did the process for the main part) was the right sacrifice for us.

In my opinion I stepped up for my family.

I would say that wouldn't be an usual opinion on an abortion for women who already have a family.

MaidOfStars, abortion is allowed in Ireland when the woman's life is at risk. They are also allowed to provide treatment to the woman in order to save her life even if it is likely that the foetus will not survive the treatment

That's as may be, but you appear to be under the illusion that the death of the fetus is not actively sought and merely a byproduct of the treatment. This is patently nonsense.

I don't agree with abortion on demand although in rape cases or incest etc I do agree with abortion in such circumstances. I have never publicly protested and do have compassion for people who have to have abortions but we have contraception in non Catholic countries and also tuition at schools about what to expect from unprotected intercourse. Do not like some of the language used on this thread either, there is no need for it in my opinion.

No, I'm not a medical doctor, but I am not presuming to pass medical judgement on that particular case.

In fact, the HSE report identified 3 key causal factors for that patient's death, the second of which was 'failure to offer all management options to a patient experiencing inevitable miscarriage of an early second trimester pregnancy where the risk to the mother increased with time from the time that membranes were ruptured'. The report explicitly stated that 'concerns about the law, whether clear or not, impacted on the exercise of clinical professional judgement'. It was NOT simply a case of medical mismanagement of a miscarriage, it was directly connected to the abortion laws in Ireland.

As an aside, the patronising 'hth' and 'benefit of the doubt' and 'I already corrected you on that' are really making you come across something of an arse.

I think this is mainly about people who foist their judgement on others varya.

I am deeply grateful I live in the uk where the law does not agree with you.

I don't agree with abortion on demand although in rape cases or incest etc I do agree with abortion in such circumstances

So, Varya, before a woman should have access to a termination she should have to prove (how exactly?) that she's been a victim of rape or incest? How would that work in practice?

For those of you who cannot contemplate anyone wanting to abort after 24 weeks:

- One good friend with a much-wanted pregnancy who, due to major cock-up at the hospital with the gene testing did not find out that her baby was not viable until 26 weeks. Should she have been forced to wait another 14 weeks, deliver a baby and then watch it die? She chose not to.

- Another good friend who did not find out until after 24 weeks that her child had anencephaly.

Walk a mile in their shoes before you presume to make choices for them.

I would never judge/object to an abortion under these terms. I find it hard to contemplate a purely elective abortion post-24 weeks.

On a separate note, I continue to be baffled that people assume women must be traumatized by abortion.

As an aside, the patronising 'hth' and 'benefit of the doubt' and 'I already corrected you on that' are really making you come across something of an arse.
You're right there, Janine. I vowed a few days ago not to get sucked back in or respond to bumbley, but it's hard when you feel passionately about a subject!

Maid, my first line says 'abortion is allowed in Ireland when the woman's life is at risk.' You know what abortion is, right? Would you say it is 'actively seeking' the death of the foetus? My second sentence covers the situations where the foetus may die as result of treatment of the mother but they are still allowed to provide that treatment to save the mother's life. Perhaps you should read things a bit more carefully before calling them 'nonsense'.

Bumbley

1. Where the foetus absolutely does have everything to do with wether it has it's own body- it's 'body' is not capable of sustaining itself until 23/24 weeks at the very earliest, so we can argue wether it's its own 'person' forever, it doesn't matter as its still reliant on the woman's uterus.

1. Women murder children, the law punishes them. The difference between that and late term abortions on a whim is that statistics show that they DO NOT HAPPEN.

1. No, I don't think women skip away from abortions, I never said that, however this idea that women just carry a baby they do not want to carry (which is not the same necessarily as a baby they do not want) and give it up for adoption and all will be hunky dory is ridiculous. It can be as traumatic and maybe more so than abortion. And adoption is also far from a magically happy life for a child either.

two fingers, no, not patronising at all. Did you mean to be so PA with your "'? I don't really need to ask.

"I believe that morally she should have been allowed the final say."

Do you believe that to be the case for all medical treatment?

"It was bad luck that she was in a backward-thinking country where the church wields too much power and is happy to see the odd female death as collateral damage." No one is happy to see death and no one considers it 'collateral damage'.

Have a pleasant evening.

pommel, my question was simply to illustrate how unreasonable BOB's post was. I'm glad you don't make the same sweeping generalisations.

Janine,

"I am not presuming to pass medical judgement on that particular case. "

Oh but you are... "That approach was fatal for Savita Halappanavar."

If her life was in danger it was within the law for her to have the abortion. Her consultant had assessed her and determined that on the balance of probabilities, there was not a serious risk to her life. When her condition deteriorated, the consultant decided on the termination but she miscarried before the procedure was carried out. The abortion would have been within the law in Ireland when her life was deemed to be at risk.

If those are 'arsey', I wonder what your opinion is of some of the comments from the 'pro-choicers' on this thread. I have a feeling you wouldn't choose to interpret them as offensive. (same to two fingers who seems to agree with you despite her making some 'arsey comments' of her own not too long ago.

"The difference between that and late term abortions on a whim is that statistics show that they DO NOT HAPPEN. "

Because they are currently illegal in the UK. The doctor who performed late term abortions (so some obviously do happen) in the US was convicted of murder.

"It can be as traumatic and maybe more so than abortion." That is your opinion but it wouldn't necessarily be everyone's.

"And adoption is also far from a magically happy life for a child either."

Again, your opinion. Many adopted children do live a happy life. Some do not but then not every 'wanted' child lives a happy life either.

There are some very moving abortion survivor stories if any of you care to read them. Children who survived attempted late term abortions (Even more proof that they happen). Do you think that is more or less traumatic than finding out that you were adopted?

In my opinion the time limit should be reduced, as prem babies can be very near the age foetuses can be aborted. BTW I don't care if you disagree, this is my opinion and I am not foisting it on anyone and I have experience of prem twins natural birth and friends who have had an abortion and that is their decision, with which they have to live.

No, bumbley, you are mistaking a statement of fact (Savita Halappanavar ended up dead at least partly as a result of the abortion laws in Ireland) for a medical opinion (your statement that she died as a result of medical mismanagement tout court).

I note that you haven't engaged with my points about the HSE report - why are you quoting only some of the findings?

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, Varya. I don't think anyone's saying you're not entitled to express your view, but how would the 'only in case of rape/incest' you suggested work in practice, do you think?