To really want to say something to these abortion protestors?

[Crocodileclip]

Firstly, I know I will probably never say anything as I appreciate that the protestors have the right to protest but it really pisses me off.

A small group of people have been protesting outside the Marie Stoppes clinic in Belfast since it opened in 2012. They stand outside the door on the days it is open holding anti abortion posters and trying to gather signatures for a petition. I pass them on my way to get to the station at home time and every time it annoys me. I can't imagine how offputting they would be if you were young and scared and just wanting some advice. Lots of pics of aborted foetuses etc. I find it intimidating enough myself and I am just walking past. I actually put my head down and walk quicker so that nobody asks me to sign the petition.

I'm currently pregnant with my second and am lucky never to have been in a position where abortion was an option but am of the opinion that there are situations in which it may be the best option available.

The clinic itself operates within NI law so only offers abortions up to 9 weeks and as far as I know is the only such clinic in Northern Ireland. I think I would be ok with the protestors doing their stuff elsewhere in the city centre it is the fact that it is just outside the only entrance to the clinc that makes me irrationally angry. Does this happen at other Marie Stoppes clinics elsewhere in the UK?

Law is meant to be separate from morality. It's meant to prevent one person infringing on another person's rights. Which is why I object to a late abortion but not an early one.

"How do we decide who's morals are right and should be law?"

This was what I was replying to. Someone has to decide what is right or wrong otherwise we wouldn't have any laws.

Maid, it's not that simple. You are not just 'withdrawing yourself' from the pregnancy. You are actively terminating a life. In the drowning man situation, you can swim away and let him drown but you can't push his head under the water and drown him

I probably can, you know, in certain situations. Perhaps drowning him is the only way I can disentangle myself. Perhaps he won't let go of his own accord and I have to use force.

the foetus's body is not mine

Ok. So let the foetus leave my uterus and survive. Except it can't, can it? So that's purely semantics,

The number of women who abort post even 20 weeks is very small, the vast majority of abortions are pre-13 weeks, those carried out post 24 weeks are pretty much always for medical reasons where the foetus is incompatible with life. So yes, I agree with the PP that I support women's rights to abort at any time up to term, because I also think women have the sense and decency to make good decisions. All these women that pro-lifers talk about who just go abort at 30 weeks on a whim simply do not exist.

But aborting at 24 weeks is a grisly affair, and if you've come that far you can just come a bit further and pass the baby off to someone who would be more than happy to give the baby a good home.

I am pretty sure that women who terminate at 24 weeks + don't do so just because they can't be bothered anymore.

Yes, the fiction that women terminate that late for the fun of it is part of the Pro-control propaganda.

Morals are how we live at a personal level.

Yes, the morals of politicians influence law but the reason that law is set by a group of people and we don't live in a dictatorship is that laws are set by common morals like not raping or not stealing, things that the majority agree on.

At which point is the soul (or whatever you'd like to call it) of the person placed into the baby?

Scientifically I know we can't know but I believe in life from conception. As a Christian I know there is a Christian argument by some for just over 5 weeks (I forget the actual age, 5 plus something) but even the Bible doesn't make it clear. I know the Bible says that God knows us in our mother's womb, but is that that He knows who we will become? I guess He knew my daughter too but she only lived 3 hours, so it's not an indication that knowing a baby means they will have a life.

All of that doesn't change the legal right for a person to choose what happens to their body. I would not want an unborn having personhood, as much as I believe that's a living soul, the idea scares me! I have seen what personhood laws are doing in the States, where you can be arrested for a miscarriage! Where women can be refused service in a pub because they're pregnant. Or Ireland where women die because they can't be treated during pregnancy and the baby dies anyway.

I have to think about my friends who have chosen to remove their bodies as life support than watch their baby die a slow agonising death and have to make the decision to remove artificial life support.

Maybe life support is a better analogy? If your child was on life support and might get better but suffer do you leave them on the life support in case or remove it before their life got worse?

I do completely support abortion to term; it's the only logical standpoint if you're going to respect women's bodily autonomy.

But late abortion other than for medical reasons - ie. finding out, late in a wanted pregnancy, that the foetus has a condition incompatible with life, & making a difficult decision to terminate - is very unusual.

The best way IMO to ensure that it becomes even more unusual is to ensure that every woman can access abortion promptly, easily & on demand, without the prospect of some misogynistic loon baying abuse at her outside the clinic.

Being anti-choice isn't the way to reduce the number of late abortions.

Of course, if you just don't like the idea of anyone having an abortion, ever, then there's a clear incentive to focus the debate on late abortions, or just to attempt to derail it entirely.

I also love this idea that you just hand over a child for adoption and then skip on merrily with your life

"So let the foetus leave my uterus and survive. Except it can't, can it? So that's purely semantics, " where the foetus happens to be has nothing to do with whether or not it has its own body.

"All these women that pro-lifers talk about who just go abort at 30 weeks on a whim simply do not exist."

I addressed this already. most woman do not abuse/neglect their children but some do. We still have laws to protect the children. We don't just assume that no woman will ever do that so we don't need the laws. Or do you have enough faith that "women have the sense and decency to make good decisions" to get rid of those laws?

Same question to Bob

Confuddled: "Or Ireland where women die because they can't be treated during pregnancy"

Women can be treated during pregnancy.

"If your child was on life support and might get better but suffer do you leave them on the life support in case or remove it before their life got worse?"

Difference between letting them die and killing them. Yes, you could remove the life support but you couldn't stab/suffocate/shoot them in the head first.

No one has been focusing on late abortions.

"I also love this idea that you just hand over a child for adoption and then skip on merrily with your life
"

Do you think every woman just has an abortuon and skips merrily on her way?

Sorry Maid, my response to you went missing.

In the 'drowning person' analogy the other person is unconscious - a more accurate representation of the foetus.

Sigh - phone posting early.

So do you still think it's ok to push his head under the water and drown him?

Of course, if you just don't like the idea of anyone having an abortion, ever, then there's a clear incentive to focus the debate on late abortions, or just to attempt to derail it entirely.

^^ This. Sums up the way this thread is going perfectly.

If the OP is still bothering to read, my room in halls at university looked right out onto the entrance to Marie Stopes London clinic. I never once saw a protestor there, thank goodness.

Fwiw I agree with Raven that these type of protests do nothing to achieve their aims and more than likely just exacerbate the situation.

"This. Sums up the way this thread is going perfectly. "

Except it doesn't because no one is focussing on late term abortions.

Apologies for being unclear. Imo, you are derailing the thread.

Right so if you need treatment which you can't have during pregnancy but can't wait long enough to deliver they'll give you an abortion?

Who's stabbing the baby first?

Kate, I think you'll find that I've been replying to other people's questions which weren't related to the OP. So, I'm not derailing the thread - or at least not singlehandedly.

Confuddled, they will not actively kill the foetus but they will treat the mother.

they will not actively kill the foetus but they will treat the mother

The first step of that treatment (assuming things like chemo etc): abort the fetus.

Confuddled, they will not actively kill the foetus but they will treat the mother.

That approach was fatal for Savita Halappanavar.

For those of you who cannot contemplate anyone wanting to abort after 24 weeks:

• One good friend with a much-wanted pregnancy who, due to major cock-up at the hospital with the gene testing did not find out that her baby was not viable until 26 weeks. Should she have been forced to wait another 14 weeks, deliver a baby and then watch it die? She chose not to.

• Another good friend who did not find out until after 24 weeks that her child had anencephaly.

Walk a mile in their shoes before you presume to make choices for them.

I have had two friends who discovered their unborn babies had anencephaly. One had a late abortion in the UK (around 7 months); the other had the misfortune to be Irish and was forced to carry her baby to term. I was pro-choice before this, but seeing my Irish friend and her husband go through what she did made me realise there really is no excuse whatsoever for refusing women autonomy over their bodies regardless of the stage of pregnancy.

*they did...

Do you think every woman just has an abortion and skips merrily on her way?

I suspect that while it must be a huge disappointment/setback for someone who wanted a child the real trauma is caused by pro-life propaganda and religion.

That's what the protesters are there for isn't it? They can't stop you from doing something legal, but they can try to make you as unhappy as possible about it afterwards and that I'm sure is a consolation to them.

MaidOfStars, abortion is allowed in Ireland when the woman's life is at risk. They are also allowed to provide treatment to the woman in order to save her life even if it is likely that the foetus will not survive the treatment. Confuddled seems to think that women 'can not be treated during pregnancy'. This is not the case.

Janine, I commented on the tragic case of Savita earlier. It was a case of mismanaged miscarriage.

Back, so you think people only feel guilty/regret their abortion because of pro-life protestors and religion and only the ones who wanted the child?