Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

To really want to say something to these abortion protestors?

999 replies

Crocodileclip · 07/03/2014 18:10

Firstly, I know I will probably never say anything as I appreciate that the protestors have the right to protest but it really pisses me off.

A small group of people have been protesting outside the Marie Stoppes clinic in Belfast since it opened in 2012. They stand outside the door on the days it is open holding anti abortion posters and trying to gather signatures for a petition. I pass them on my way to get to the station at home time and every time it annoys me. I can't imagine how offputting they would be if you were young and scared and just wanting some advice. Lots of pics of aborted foetuses etc. I find it intimidating enough myself and I am just walking past. I actually put my head down and walk quicker so that nobody asks me to sign the petition.

I'm currently pregnant with my second and am lucky never to have been in a position where abortion was an option but am of the opinion that there are situations in which it may be the best option available.

The clinic itself operates within NI law so only offers abortions up to 9 weeks and as far as I know is the only such clinic in Northern Ireland. I think I would be ok with the protestors doing their stuff elsewhere in the city centre it is the fact that it is just outside the only entrance to the clinc that makes me irrationally angry. Does this happen at other Marie Stoppes clinics elsewhere in the UK?

OP posts:
JapaneseMargaret · 14/03/2014 19:56

24 weeks isn't an arbitrary point though, is it? There comes a stage in gestation when a baby is no longer 100% reliant on the umbilical cord, placenta and host.

Currently, that point is around the 23-24 week mark, which is why the current cut-off point sits there. Not arbitrary at all.

However, if push came to shove, then I would support abortion to term. Purely because I believe in bodily autonomy, and I have enough faith in womankind to know fairly fundamentally, that women choosing abortion post 24-weeks, do so for good reasons.

bumbleymummy · 14/03/2014 20:04

Some babies are surviving before 24 weeks though. What about a 23 week, 6 day old foetus - no right to life? I think the youngest surviving premature baby was born at 21 weeks and 5 days. So, yes, it is arbitrary to pick 24 weeks and if you are going to choose an arbitrary value then you shoudl err on the side of caution. Most people think that the abortion limit needs to be decreased.

"I have enough faith in womankind to know fairly fundamentally, that women choosing abortion post 24-weeks, do so for good reasons."

I suppose the women who have murdered their children have done so for good reasons too then? Sometimes people (including women) don't always do the 'right thing.'

JapaneseMargaret · 14/03/2014 20:23

I wasn't going to be explicit, since I thought perhaps it might be a bit tasteless, but perhaps I have to be.

Someone who aborts a child on a whim - for no reason, other than they've changed their mind about being pregnant - at, say 30 weeks, probably wasn't going to provide that child with a nurturing, loving environment, enabling it to become a well-rounded individual that ultimately contributes to society.

Pro-lifers don't like this argument one little bit, but then, I don't like their arguments, so...

I wonder though, if we have any figures for women seeking out backstreet abortions at post-24 weeks, because they no longer want to be pregnant, and can't terminate their pregnancy via legal means. I suspect the figures to be low-to-non-existent.

I reiterate - making abortion illegal does not eridcate the issue at all. The process of terminating an unwanted pregnancy has existed since the dawn of time, and it's not going to go away, no matter how difficult you make it for women.

bumbleymummy · 14/03/2014 20:44

So do you think mothers who feel that they can't/don't don't give their children loving, nurturing environments should be allowed to murder their children?

How would we have figures for back street abortions given that they are illegal? What about the case in the US where the doctor who performed late term abortion was convicted of murder. Should that have been ok in your opinion because the woman was just exercising her right to bodily autonomy and he was just helping her out?

"The process of terminating an unwanted pregnancy has existed since the dawn of time"

Things have changed since the dawn of time. We now have contraception for a start.

"it's not going to go away, no matter how difficult you make it for women."

Crime isn't going to go away either. People are still going to steal and commit murder - should we just let them and not say/try to do anything about it?

BackOnlyBriefly · 14/03/2014 20:48

Most people think that the abortion limit needs to be decreased.

37% last time they did a poll I think.

confuddledDOTcom · 14/03/2014 20:49

Crime isn't a moral decision. Abortion isn't a crime, in fact it's a legal right.

BackOnlyBriefly · 14/03/2014 20:51

Well it's murder in bumbleymummy's eyes isn't it.

Not believing in their god used to be a crime too, but we are gradually making progress.

JapaneseMargaret · 14/03/2014 20:57

Abortion isn't a crime.

Contraception isn't 100% proof.

Not wanting to go ahead with an unwanted pregnany has existed since the dawn of time, and continues to exist now, regardless of contraception.

Do you think all Irish women who are pregnant and really do not want to be, just go ahead with the pregnancy?

Again - making abortion illegal does not stop women from having abortions.

TruffleOil · 14/03/2014 21:03

However, if push came to shove, then I would support abortion to term. Purely because I believe in bodily autonomy, and I have enough faith in womankind to know fairly fundamentally, that women choosing abortion post 24-weeks, do so for good reasons.

I can't really think of a good reason to abort a 24 week fetus, to be honest. I couldn't give a fig if anyone chooses to have an abortion at 12 weeks or even if that's their chosen method of contraception. Have 1/5/10/100. But aborting at 24 weeks is a grisly affair, and if you've come that far you can just come a bit further and pass the baby off to someone who would be more than happy to give the baby a good home.

confuddledDOTcom · 14/03/2014 21:03

People might see it as murder but legally it isn't. Some people don't, that is a moral choice. If your morals tell you it's murder, then don't do it, if they tell you it's not and you need to do it, do it.

bumbleymummy · 14/03/2014 21:06

37% according to this
53% according to this
58% from this survey
65% of doctors in this survey

Always the majority of the vote.

BOB, I haven't said it is murder. Whose god? It's been pointed out to you several times that even non-religious people object to abortion.

bumbleymummy · 14/03/2014 21:10

Truffle, "I can't really think of a good reason to abort a 24 week fetus, to be honest." I agree but it's apparently it's the woman's right to have bodily autonomy! Hmm An unwanted foetus at 24 weeks or even 37 is just the same as an unwanted foetus at 5/8/12 weeks etc etc...

Bit of a difference between 12 weeks and 24 weeks though. How do you feel about 23 weeks? 22? 21 and 5 days?

JapaneseMargaret · 14/03/2014 21:10

That's fine TruffleOil - you don't need to support abortion to term. I'm just saying I would, if it came down to it. I believe that anyone doing so then is probably doing so for a good reason.

To add - I don't think most rapists make it their business to use contraception.

And contraception is no good if you want to get pregnant, and then find out your baby has a condition which is incompatible with life.

JapaneseMargaret · 14/03/2014 21:13

Again, people who do not want to go ahead with their pregnancy will find a way to terminate it, regardless of the legality of it in their country.

This is an absolute.

Making abortion illegal just makes it more difficult for those who really want to do it. It does not, and never will, eradicate the issue.

bumbleymummy · 14/03/2014 21:15

Avoiding my questions then Japanese? Fair enough. I know they're uncomfortable.

How far would you go to support abortion to term? Do you think that doctor was guilty of murder or not?

bumbleymummy · 14/03/2014 21:17

"Again, people who do not want to go ahead with their pregnancy will find a way to terminate it, regardless of the legality of it in their country. "

People who want to commit a crime will do so regardless of the legality of it in their country. Having the laws will not eradicate crime. Does that mean we shouldn't have laws against it?

TruffleOil · 14/03/2014 21:23

Bit of a difference between 12 weeks and 24 weeks though. How do you feel about 23 weeks? 22? 21 and 5 days?

Ah hah. I knew I'd be caught out here. I understand & appreciate that whatever someone decides it's arbitrary to someone. I'll leave that to someone else to decide. I can tell you this: I've had more than one abortion, and I felt no remorse/guilt/regret. They were both at around 9/10 weeks, and my view remains that there's an infinitesimal difference between that and a misspent sperm + an unrealized egg. It was the right decision for me, and I walked out both times with a light heart.

I'm also a mother, and I've felt a my baby flutter and then kick, at less than 24 weeks. You can't convince me that pulling that out of my body would be OK.

confuddledDOTcom · 14/03/2014 22:05

If I got pregnant and wanted an abortion but it wasn't legal, I'd just not take my medication. I wouldn't get past 24 weeks if I was very fortunate. I'd risk another TIA or possibly a stroke but what difference would it make? Either struggle with my health, worsening disability with another, probably disabled, high needs baby or struggle with the amount I have with hopefully not much more damage to my health.

confuddledDOTcom · 14/03/2014 22:08

You're talking about making one set of people's morals law. Why that person's morals and not someone else's? How do we decide who's morals are right and should be law?

bumbleymummy · 14/03/2014 22:15

"How do we decide who's morals are right and should be law?"

How do you think any laws have been made?

bumbleymummy · 14/03/2014 22:17

btw they don't base their decisions on whether or not the law is going to stop people ever breaking it.

HadABadDay2014 · 14/03/2014 22:28

I think that with any abortion the women would have the right help and support.

I am getting torn on this.

Say a women threatened or had tried to commit suicide over the pregnancy because of MH issues wanted the pregnancy gone.

I am not sure if she is in the right frame of mind and when she hopefully gets better will then get worse over a decision she made when unwell. Especially late term abortions.

confuddledDOTcom · 14/03/2014 22:58

Morals aren't the same as crime. I don't think anyone would ever argue that it is right to beat someone up in the street and take all their money, that's not morals that's wrong.

Morals are the things that polarise a discussion like this. Whether same sex couples should get married, which faith to follow, whether you believe in sex before marriage, personhood etc.

None of those things have a definitive answer that will suit everyone beyond make your choices based on your own moral code.

I knew someone somewhere would have a better answer than mine:

"If morality is the answer to the question 'how ought we to live' at the individual level, politics can be seen as addressing the same question at the social level, though the political sphere raises additional problems and challenges."

HadABadDay2014 · 14/03/2014 23:04

Doesn't get better

bumbleymummy · 14/03/2014 23:15

I didn't say that morals were the same as crime. Morals are the principles of right and wrong. How do you say something is a crime if you do not decide that it is wrong? If you were not able to say something was wrong you could not make it a crime. You could not make any laws at all.