To really want to say something to these abortion protestors?

[Crocodileclip]

Firstly, I know I will probably never say anything as I appreciate that the protestors have the right to protest but it really pisses me off.

A small group of people have been protesting outside the Marie Stoppes clinic in Belfast since it opened in 2012. They stand outside the door on the days it is open holding anti abortion posters and trying to gather signatures for a petition. I pass them on my way to get to the station at home time and every time it annoys me. I can't imagine how offputting they would be if you were young and scared and just wanting some advice. Lots of pics of aborted foetuses etc. I find it intimidating enough myself and I am just walking past. I actually put my head down and walk quicker so that nobody asks me to sign the petition.

I'm currently pregnant with my second and am lucky never to have been in a position where abortion was an option but am of the opinion that there are situations in which it may be the best option available.

The clinic itself operates within NI law so only offers abortions up to 9 weeks and as far as I know is the only such clinic in Northern Ireland. I think I would be ok with the protestors doing their stuff elsewhere in the city centre it is the fact that it is just outside the only entrance to the clinc that makes me irrationally angry. Does this happen at other Marie Stoppes clinics elsewhere in the UK?

Why thank you twofingers.

BM, I have googled it and can find no example of it from a reputable source. If something is stated as fact, the onus to provide evidence is on the person stating it.

So I am quite willing to provide evidence of anything I have stated as fact - the definition of organ donation, the source of the blood donation analogy, but I am not going to waste further time looking for evidence to support claims that are not my own.

I'm not wasting any more time here either. I'm just really heartened to see that the overwhelming majority of people here don't share BM's views and am glad to live in a country where women are relatively free to make their own decisions about such an important issue.

Almond, you have already recognised that 'donating' a uterus is not analogous to donating an organ. We both agree on that.

Yes, I replied to it further upthread

Ah yes, you agree that in this case, the donor would have the right to discontinue the donation, even if it meant the death of the person simultaneously receiving.

And so now your position has to be that the process of donating a uterus is completed at pregnancy, not after gestation? That once implantation happens, the donation is complete?

Which isaying that in a direct blood transfusion, the donation is complete once the donor has the needle stuck in his arm. That makes no sense.

And for the record, can you clarify your position on those who have been forced to donate their uterus?

A couple of points- the difference between organ donation and pregnancy is that when I give my kidney to someone, once it is out of my body, it's no longer mine. My uterus during pregnancy- still mine. so as its mine its my decision what I do with it. I chose to not have the foetus in my uterus anymore, then that's my right. Cos it's mine. I am not obligated to allow it to be used for anything, by anyone, ever. That's not about saying my life is more important, it's about my body being mine to do with as I see fit.
My analogy would be: I am in a building with another person, it falls down. The only thing stopping the other person dying is me holding up the roof (let's presume I'm supergirl). I am not obligated to continue to hold that roof, at any time of my choosing I am allowed to leave as it is in my best interest to do so. I may feel like cheap for dropping that roof, I may feel guilty, I may feel sad, but ultimately I am not obliged to hold it up if I decide that it's not in my best interest to do so.

I honestly don't know if I can call myself pro life or not.

I know that abortion makes me deeply sad. It just does. And also I feel that the view "don't believe in abortion, don't have one" is too simplistic as people who are very very pro life believe that the fetus is a baby. People who decide they don't wish to be parents anymore are not legally allowed to kill their children- either they give them up or get help or suffer through. To someone very very pro-life, the woman is already a mother as they believe the fetus is already a baby, so to them, those are the choices as well. For the record, I am not saying I believe that!

I believe the quote (and someone may already have mentioned this) that goes something like "no woman wants an abortion like she wants a Porsche or a tropical vacation. A woman wants an abortion like an animal wants to chew off its leg to get out of a trap." That really resonates with me.

I've been told I can't be a feminist and believe in anything except for a law that says abortions at any time, for any reason. But for me it IS a feminist issue, because it's only women who need to make the choice between school and a baby or a career and a baby. Why? What do we need to bring down the number of abortions? Not more abortion laws, in my book. Not protesters without an inch of compassion. We need laws that force men to take responsibility for their offspring. We need to help women trapped in domestic violence. We need to fight rape culture. We need a better benefit system. We need programs in place to help women if they want to continue their schooling AND their pregnancies. We need to stop stigmatizing career women. We need better advice on and availability of contraceptives.

Those are things, as a Christian, that I would certainly consider a better use of time than holding up terrible pictures and being judgmental.

That's quite a good analogy.

Unfortunately, my prediction for Friday is that bumbleymummy will now spend a substantial chunk of the day burbling that being pregnant is actually more akin to having a blocked gutter than to holding up the roof, or something.

This will continue until 1000 posts as more reasoned & honest posters tire of engaging.

Lol raven I suspect you may well be correct.

Would still be my guttering ;)

My OH had the snip at our local one, I was really worried about going past them. I don't know what they think they will achieve there, people don't generally get there lightly.

I am a Christian and I do believe in life from conception and I couldn't have an abortion. I once took MAP because I was raped and it was the hardest decision and when I lost my babies because I was still undiagnosed I regretted it because I knew I would (could) have had another loss under my belt and had a baby sooner (that probably sounds awful). I am totally pro-life BUT I am also pro-choice because I recognise that it is a moral decision that science can't prove either way. Even if it was provable, I don't think that a woman should be forced to do something with her own body she does not want to do.

I don't see how a law against abortion is in anyone's interest, even if it was proven.

Looks like I've missed out on an interesting thread so I may attempt to RTFT if I can't sleep tonight.

cheerfulyank - the chewing your own leg off analogy is exactly how it feels.

My analogy would be: I am in a building with another person, it falls down. The only thing stopping the other person dying is me holding up the roof (let's presume I'm supergirl). I am not obligated to continue to hold that roof, at any time of my choosing I am allowed to leave as it is in my best interest to do so. I may feel like cheap for dropping that roof, I may feel guilty, I may feel sad, but ultimately I am not obliged to hold it up if I decide that it's not in my best interest to do so

Yep, like this. Have seen similar with a drowning situation, which extends this type of analogy slightly...So, you are lost in a body of water with someone else who is unable to swim or save themselves. You are holding them up, holding their head out of the water, but at no point are you obliged to continue to do so if it's not in your best interests to do so. You can let them go at any point you want. Furthermore, you may also use force against them if they refuse to allow you to let them go. You can push them, disentangle them, by whatever means necessary.

In my opinion, the only valid 'pro-life' position is one that doesn't tolerate abortion at any time point for any reason (except a single exception where it is a choice between either losing baby or losing both baby and Mum).

If life begins at conception, anything that terminates this is murder.

A 'pro-lifer' who supports the MAP/coil is actually 'pro-choice'. The two sides simply disagree on when the embryo/fetus is worthy of moral consideration. A 'pro-lifer' could not, in good conscience, support abortion for reasons of fatal fetal anomaly, nor in cases of rape. A 'pro-lifer' could not, in good conscience, support a friend through an abortion. I wouldn't help a friend commit something I believed to be murder, saying it was 'her choice'.

A true pro-life position is actually quite rare (in my experience).

Cheerful and confuddled - if only more 'pro-lifers' were as empathetic, compassionate and unblinkered as you.

As was said quite early on in the thread, making abortion illegal does not stop women from having abortions. It just makes it extremely difficult and unsafe for them. It does not, and will not stop them.

I'm not a pro-lifer really, I'm pro-choice, my personal choice is I couldn't do it. Not all pro-choicers could do it themselves. In fact a lot of the people I've spoken to have said different things for themself.

I thought like that dot. When I was actually in the situation though I decided that not wanting an abortion was a shit reason to go through with a pg that carried lots of risk to all my family.

Pomme I would imagine that's exactly how it feels. :(

Like I said, abortion does make me sad. But my concern is the woman...why is she in a position where she had to make the choice? I know many women do, and don't feel regret afterwards. But I have known far too many women who would have continued the pregnancy in different circumstances and it makes me angry as hell that they were pushed into this situation they didn't fully want. And also far too many women (usually very young) who were put in that position because of not having advice about or access to contraception. Or young women being pushed into sex. And then they're left holding the bag and having to make the decision while the father gets to skip merrily off like it never happened.

FWIW I do care very much about born children as well! :) And we are in the very very early stages of hopefully getting our ducks in a row to adopt a toddler with Down Syndrome, so yes I would step up and adopt.

As far as the protesters themselves, though, I think it's horrible. I believe in a person's right to free speech and a person's right to protest but they should not be allowed to approach anyone and they should DEFINITELY not be allowed to hold up graphic photos. I would be livid.

My FIL protests. Outside a clinic that doesn't even provide abortions.

"the donor would have the right to discontinue the donation, even if it meant the death of the person simultaneously receiving."

Yes, the difference between right to not be killed and right not to die.

"Which isaying that in a direct blood transfusion, the donation is complete once the donor has the needle stuck in his arm. That makes no sense. "

You are now trying to compare the blood transfusion to an organ donation even though you decided to use it as an alternative.

"And for the record, can you clarify your position on those who have been forced to donate their uterus?"

Not sure what you mean here - Isn't that what people are saying everyone who has an unwanted pregnancy in this analogy is? Or are you asking about rape victims? If the latter then I did address that further upthread.

"My uterus during pregnancy- still mine" Therefore not the same as donating organ, therefore the organ donation anology doesn't apply therefore you can't use the "I can't be forced to donate my kidney" line.

" it's about my body being mine to do with as I see fit. "

Again, the foetus' body is not yours.

RE roof building analogy - just a variation on other analogies - right to not be killed is not right not to die. However, if you only had to hold the roof up for a certain period of time in order to enable someone to live some people argue that you are more obliged to do so than if you had to hold it up for the rest of your life.

"You can push them, disentangle them, by whatever means necessary."

You can't hold their head under the water until they drown though.

"If life begins at conception, anything that terminates this is murder. "

Not every pro-lifer believes life begins at conception. Some opt for implantation, when the blastocyst actually starts to develop into an embryo.

You really think that someone who does not have a problem with the MAP/coil is pro-choice? I think a person who is pro-choice supports the right of a woman to choose abortion for any reason at any stage of her pregnancy - right up to term. How can you support a woman's right to choose and still put conditions on it? Real pro-choicers are very rare.

Cheerful, good luck with your adoption! I was pleased to see that pro-life charities are trying to support women throughout their pregnancies and beyond (despite what some posters on this thread think) I too would like to see much more of that, along with better access to contraception and better sex education (as I mentioned earlier). I find it very sad that so many women focus on the woman's right to end her pregnancy but not her right to prevent it or her right to a situation that enables her to keep it.

Yes, I have to say that it is only really in principle that I am a personal pro-lifer. I had planned to have two children, my OH was supposed to have got the snip but I don't think he thought I had suffered as much as he would (I am autoimmune, thrombophiliac, long term PGP, Irritable Uterus, babies being born earlier) we then had two more. I have been left with worse disability than I had after just two, earlier CTx, earlier births, worse disabilities and I'm finding it all very hard. It did cross my mind last time and if it ever happened again I can honestly say I would have to seriously consider what I did because I can imagine the next baby would be pushing viability.

I have a friend with similar beliefs to me who has had two abortions because they had serious disabilities that wouldn't survive into adulthood. She is tested every time because she knows she's a carrier, she's seen the devastation it causes to the child and family, the slow painful death and doesn't want to put her child, or her LC, through that. I can understand that and think I would probably do the same. I don't see her loss as any different to the little girl I lost. In one loss group a lady said that she knew she would have to make a decision to stop life support at some point and she felt it kinder to make that life support her body.

Yes, the difference between right to not be killed and right not to die

Understood. The aim in procuring abortion is to not be pregnant. It entirely secondary that the fetus is unable to survive on its own.

Bumbley, I'm going to remove myself from the 'debate' re: bodily autonomy/donating organs/whatever. You're continual (hopefully genuine) misunderstanding, as has been pointed out numerous times by numerous posters, does not make for fruitful discussion.

Not every pro-lifer believes life begins at conception. Some opt for implantation, when the blastocyst actually starts to develop into an embryo

This is an arbitrary choice of time point for when an embryo acquires moral status. And BTW, a blastocyst is already an embryo.

You really think that someone who does not have a problem with the MAP/coil is pro-choice?

Yep. They accept deliberate embryo death before a timepoint they feel comfortable with. My timepoint happens to be later. It's just semantics.

Maid, it's not that simple. You are not just 'withdrawing yourself' from the pregnancy. You are actively terminating a life. In the drowning man situation, you can swim away and let him drown but you can't push his head under the water and drown him.

I'm not the one misunderstanding/misusing the analogy but you are,of course, very welcome to step away from it.

"This is an arbitrary choice of time point for when an embryo acquires moral status."

Any more arbitrary than giving a foetus the right to life at 24 weeks?

Sorry, I should have said enters the embryonic stage of development.

So afayac you can't be 'pro-life' unless you believe in life from conception rather than the 'arbitrary' implantation stage but it's ok to be 'pro-choice' and set an arbitrary value for when the woman actually has the right to choose? Did you really think that through?

The problem with analogy is there isn't one that fits. It's a moral decision and people - especially Christians which I say as the Christian granddaughter of two ministers - need to stop trying to control other people's moral choices.

"need to stop trying to control other people's moral choices."

SO we should just allow people to commit crimes then?