to re-pose the radio 4 question - Is childcare good for CHILDREN?

[IceBeing]

Our dearest Justine and some bloke from the family childcare trust were on radio 4 this morning talking about childcare costs.

They focussed on Mums who would like to work more but cannot afford to due to childcare costs, and a proposal to make more free time available for 2-3 yos.

They both made a compelling case that this situation was bad for the Mums (because they want to work and can't).

They made a reasonable (but by no means obviously correct) argument that it was better for the economy for these Mums to work.

But they were then asked something along the lines of:

" Is increased access to childcare good for children? I mean if it isn't there isn't really any point? "

And they didn't answer AT ALL. They went back to the previous economic answer. Well actually Justine didn't get a chance to respond - so no accusation in her specific direction!

But what is the answer?

Is taking a child out of the home and putting them in nursery for an additional period between 2 and 3 yo (which was the proposal being discussed) actually good for the child?

Do kids in nursery earlier do better/worse at school? Are they happier/less happy? Is this a simple case of happier mummy, happier toddler?

NO so you can make sure no one is telling your child to shut up for screeching so you can make sure it has not been strapped into a chair well past snack and feeding time, so you can make sure they are engaged in an activE and happy and busy and SAFE.

ARE YOU FOR REAL?

I presume that's the post I said I wouldn't read?

How helpful of you Colouringinqueen

I shall withdraw her immediately. Only problem is that she likes it there.

Don't you get leave?

Oh my days, do you think we all have jobs we can all just pop out in? Not all of us work in an office. I work in a hospital. I can't just leave to see if my DS is alright at nursery. My patients might notice the lack of care.

And I'm only in two days a week I'm hardly going to have booked a dentist appointment on either of those days.

IdRather you are being hysterical and fairly offensive

I have clearly made different choices to you, for which you think I should burn in hell. But I have made those choices, I am happy with them, my DH is happy with them and my DD is happy with them. So frankly I don't need you to tell me I'm neglectful.

Its no wonder so many of these places get away with so much .

Its no surprise that they will continue too as well.

Now go away and polish your halo

Little Bear I find you frightening.

Frightening and blind.

You know nothing about my personal situation at all, I have experience in working on the other side of these places and I have had experience of a relative in a care setting.

Sadly its not all rosey look at the brochure and put your child in and be greeted by a smiling care worker telling you they have had a good day.

You need to pop in. You may be happy with what you see I would urge you, thats the only way you can check.

SILLY

At least you are on the ball and know what to look out for, you develop a sort of sense about these things when you have experienced bad.

Its things like staff change you need to look out for and make sure the manager is an effective person who can control the staff.

Where I worked the manager was weak and was bullied and the bullies ruled. If you saw Winterbourne View" it was a similar thing, weak management and one bad egg, drawing on the others in bad behaviour.

Blimey, what's happened to this thread? I was really impressed that it was staying pretty civilized, with people actually listening to each other, not adopting really extreme positions, talking about how to do the best given individual children's needs and individual family circumstances. But now it's suddenly gone berserk! Yes, there are some bad nurseries - and part of being a parent, even a working parent - is being sensitive to your child's moods so you can pick up when things aren't quite right... and if necessary find a better nursery/childminder whatever. But to then scare-monger and suggest that all nurseries are potential hell-holes, and that some person you've never met who happens to hold a contrary position to your own should suddenly drop everything, this instant, and run to make an unannounced visit to her child's nursery, despite having no reason to suspect that anything is wrong, because someone else, on a different thread, has had a bad experience... Have I entered some sort of weird parallel universe here?

Why am I frightening. You know nothing about my situation, or my choices or the nursery my DD goes to. But you choose to judge me and try to frighten me and the other people on this thread whose children are in nurseries.

And when I said I wouldn't read another thread about a nursery because frankly why should I it was copied to this thread so I could read it. That was nice.

I hope you all feel good about yourselves

There's a fine line between benevolent concern for other people's children, and a rather insidious desire to scaremonger....

I think the vast majority of parents who choose not to use childcare are probably perfectly content with their choice and don't obsess about people who do use it

I also see that there are a minority who on some level, perhaps subconsciously, want some 'payback' for the sacrifice they've made by becoming a SAHP, and that payback comes in a rather malicious form: they want to make working parents mothers feel bad. They hint darkly at all the dreadful things that are happening unbeknown to us (but strangely, known to them) in the nurseries our children attend. Yes, that's right, the nurseries we know, which our children love. Apparently this minority of posters know our nurseries and our children better than we do....

Amazing.

I always think these posters would be mightily pissed off to meet my teenage kids and see that despite attending childcare, they are happy, confident and doing very well at school.

I'm told I'm frightening but that I should chill?

Actually I don't always pick DD up at the same time. If I have afternoon client meetings nearer her nursery I will pick her up earlier. I can do this. I don't have to tell the nursery in advance. I will drop her off later tomorrow as she has an appointment.

Bizarrely I shouldn't have to confirm all this to avoid being told I'm frightening. Should I?

Or do you think that IdRather is being perfectly pleasant and coloringinqueen was concerned I might miss something I absolutely needed to know?

... And I agree with the principle of nurseries encouraging impromptu drop ins, and as I said upthread I did this myself occasionally in the early days. It's also something I would recommend to any parent new to childcare, as a useful strategy for getting the feel of a place

But I wouldn't dream of telling a parent who is perfectly happy with their childcare arrangement that they should do it. Because parents know their own children and their own situation best, and if they say they don't feel they need to drop in then I'd respect that.

I'm afraid there are occasional posters on this type of thread who aren't showing altruistic concern for other people's children... It's pretty clear that on some level they resent parents who work and have happy children in childcare and want to cast a cloud over it. It's not most by all means, but there are always a few who pop up on these threads

I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that all parents should call into the settings caring for their children unexpectedly occasionally.

The cannot be many parents who don't have an opportunity to collect their child early now and then, even just once a year, perhaps for a doctor's appointment or to make an early start on a trip away. All it takes is for you to 'forget' to mention your intention to arrive early when it's going to happen anyway.

Even if your child is happy to attend, something could come to light that you realise you are concerned about. I have reported a setting that my older DD had attended and I only became concerned about when I started to work there myself when my DD2 was attending. I couldn't have been more amazed at what went on once other parents were out of sight and hearing. The setting closed down not long afterwards despite having previously had a good reputation and a good Ofsted.

Of course most parents will just have their positive view of the setting confirmed by these checks but you can't predict from outward appearances which settings are the ones neglecting or mistreating children or putting them at risk any more than you can tell which parents are doing.

I have always encouraged childminding parents to drop in unexpectedly because I want them to feel confidence in the care their child is getting.

I'm not saying this out of some dark need to make working parents feel guilty. Why would a childminder do that? I'm saying it because I've seen a disturbing situation myself, I've heard about others, I've had concerns about the care my child with SN has been getting from specialist staff in her school and I've seen and heard the reports about abuse being uncovered in all sorts of places that are supposed to be caring for vulnerable members of our society.

If you have someone you love being cared for by others for long periods it makes sense just to check occasionally that the picture they are painting for you reflects the reality of the situation.

I said I wasn't going to say to work that I had a dentists appointment and then travel 2.5 hours to do it.

I didn't say that I always picked her up at exactly the same time, should I have needed to? Do you need to know that I walk her in, take her coat off and sit her down with her breakfast or that her dad counts the dogs they see with her when he takes her? I presume that mothers try to do their best. It is clearly not a view shared by others on this thread.

I cannot imagine why I'm defensive, at all.

Oh dear...well I suppose it was inevitable the thread would spiral in the end.

little I am sorry you feel attacked. As far as I can see people were only suggesting one should drop in on a care environment unannounced every once in a while with the best of intentions - and often as a result of actually having found something wrong in the past.

I don't think we should live our lives in fear - but I don't think we should live in blissful ignorance either. A happy balance is required to minimise stress while simultaneously minimising the possibilities for abuse of trust.

IMe as a mother of 4 and being a WOHM (DC1 was in a nursery from 4 months old) and SAHM (DCs 2, 3 & 4 starting nursery at 22 months and 2 and a half) childcare is not good for babies under 3. This is a view I have only come to in the last few years.

Whatever the feminist viewpoint, babies/toddlers need to be in close proximity to their mothers (the one they started bonding with in the womb, not even a father can replicate that) until they become more verbal and self aware and can define themselves as separate beings. (Sorry, deliberately controversial). By the age of three, much of a child’s brain growth is complete and foundations for emotional intelligence, especially, have been laid.

No mother really HAS to work before their child is this age. People tell themselves this as what they want to do is keep up their standard of living. Well raising DC is expensive and if you have to downsize things, downsize them. Mother's who find themselves single can claim benefits until the youngest child is 5 and they won't starve on them.

What we need is encouragement and support for mothers to stay at home until their babies are that age, financial incentives to do so, programmes to assist with the toll that motherhood can take on our mental health (isolation, sleep deprivation, boredom, endless mundane tasks for little reward) and less stigma of: being out of the workplace to raise children = turned stupid.

I think the main problem is the old adage, 'it takes a community to raise a child' has long disappeared and a lot of women feel forced into going back to work early due to isolation. It can be so lonely being a SAHM. I remember wearing the 'mask' of 'everything's wonderful' for two hours at baby and toddler group then wanting to burst into tears on the way home at the thought of another afternoon of cooking, cleaning, wiping up snot, screaming, tantrums, offensive nappies etc. It is pretty crap a lot of the time and 'sharing the load' would be a start.