to re-pose the radio 4 question - Is childcare good for CHILDREN?

[IceBeing]

Our dearest Justine and some bloke from the family childcare trust were on radio 4 this morning talking about childcare costs.

They focussed on Mums who would like to work more but cannot afford to due to childcare costs, and a proposal to make more free time available for 2-3 yos.

They both made a compelling case that this situation was bad for the Mums (because they want to work and can't).

They made a reasonable (but by no means obviously correct) argument that it was better for the economy for these Mums to work.

But they were then asked something along the lines of:

" Is increased access to childcare good for children? I mean if it isn't there isn't really any point? "

And they didn't answer AT ALL. They went back to the previous economic answer. Well actually Justine didn't get a chance to respond - so no accusation in her specific direction!

But what is the answer?

Is taking a child out of the home and putting them in nursery for an additional period between 2 and 3 yo (which was the proposal being discussed) actually good for the child?

Do kids in nursery earlier do better/worse at school? Are they happier/less happy? Is this a simple case of happier mummy, happier toddler?

I looked quite extensively into the necessity of bonding to mum because my pnd made it practically impossible. And I did not find much to suggest that it has to be mum. It has to be someone...but that person can be someone other than mum and it can certainly be dad. The key seemed to be having one person that has primary care of the child day in day out who can meet the childs emotional needs.

sorry that point seems tangential - but actually it helps decouple the primary carer requirement from any feminist issues....as dads can take on the role too!

Everyone who's saying things along the lines if 'you wouldn't believe what goes on/one nursery has a terrible reputation' etc. Have you not thought of whistleblowing? Reporting concerns to Ofsted etc? All it takes for evil to prevail is for good people to sit gossiping instead of reporting concerns!!

What a horrific idea that mothers should be guilt tripped into staying at home with their children for three years even though it might well be lonely, stigmatised, cause you to burst into tears regularly and be generally a bit crap. Well no thank you very much!

If that was the life I could have been forced into I would not have had children because I would have absolutely hated it. Plus I doubt I would have been able to get a good job and do something I find fulfilling and generally worthwhile because three years out of the workforce for each child essentially means that you might as well not bother attempting a career because essentially you pretty much need retraining after a gap that long. And what employer would want to spend much on you pre-children if they knew their investment might well be a right off?

Oh and although I picked up our children early and dropped them late on occasion I would never have turned up in the middle of the day for a spot visit (presumably when most slacking is likely for that very reason) because it would have been very disruptive for my children.

Of course there is a risk of abuse/poor care with any set up, but then shouldn't the working partner be making sure they do flying visits home to check up on their stay at home wife (or husband) given the chance of things going wrong at home are far more likely (both accidents and neglect) and also much less likely to be noticed by anyone.

Just go for a nursery with cameras and then you can watch all day. We do that at ours.

So between insanity and retro we should stay at home and cry and it be crap at us having to do everything, and the tv should provide a sign of home and security? No offence but sounds pretty depressing. I dont think women should be advised to do that against their will.

We have had sahms come in crying, on anti ds etc because of the isolation, but thats what we are here for to share the load, so we take a lot of under 3s for sahms to. Our nursery records our every move and everything that is said so you can watch all day to put your mind at rest.

I manage to live my life neither in fear nor denial thanks, and it wasn't a 'horrendous wrench' seeing them off to nursery (projection much!). dh and I were very happy about their time there and so were our children. I am sure that there were times when it wasn't perfect, but we liked and got to know quite well their key workers and I am confident that terrible things weren't happening that if only I had skived off work (as suggested) I would have caught in action.

We didn't always get their childcare right, but it worked out OK overall for us as a family, and to me that's what matters. I had no intention of martyring myself by giving up work that I enjoyed and was good at and that had some social worth to it to stay at home and be miserable because of some perceived 'mother is best' mantra.

My children are teenagers now and the fact that both of their parents have had flexible and fairly well paid careers has worked out very well for us. I am sure that other arrangements work out very well for other families.

Just want to add that my son was really happy at the daycare where I said I only ever saw the babies strapped into high chairs. It was a new center and they had a wonderful setup for preschoolers. The babies room was not so great - fully tiled and set up more for easy cleaning than play IYKWIM. I honestly never saw a baby just crawling around but occasionally I'd see one in a carer's arms. There was no television. The head teacher was a bit rough around the edges but 'salt of the earth' type. I have no regrets at all about sending him there.

Goldmandra- to answer your earlier post, of course a decent childminder is going to encourage parents to make impromptu drop ins if they feel they need to . And I agree with you that it doesn't make sense for a childminder to try to undermine working parents... Not least because they are relying on working parents to be able to be a working parent themself!!

I didn't say everyone who pushes the view that impromptu visits should be made is scaremongering. I actually stated that I am sure the majority aren't

I am equally sure that there is a small, but strident, minority of people who are really anti childcare (I've seen some posters say they would never ever use it) and also some people who have quite extreme views that a child 'should' be with its mother (eg post above which says children need to be physically close to their mother for 3 years!!) who have a different agenda going on....

If you feel that you have made a big sacrifice by giving up work for an extended period of time, perhaps jeopardise future prospects , then I guess unless you are totally secure in that choice, you may on some level resent mothers who have made a different choice and whose children are equally happy and well adjusted. If someone is insecure, or feels they have made a sacrifice, sometimes their way of coping with that feeling is to convince themselves that people who have made different choices are wrong

Another thing I find quite laughable and in the same vein, is the view expressed upthread that couples who both work are greedy and do it to maintain a luxury standard of living. Do these people not read the news? Has it passed them by that a big current story is the exorbitant cost of childcare? Life of luxury my arse... We were similar to many in that having two children in childcare cost the equivalent of my salary! If we'd wanted to maintain the same standard of living and have an easier life in the short term I could have given up work, because we'd have had the same money in our pockets at the end of the month. There are many many reasons why mums want to stay in work... Not least because many do socially essential work- medics, teachers etc plus many of us simply want to continue with that aspect of our life whille raising our children. Children that we adore every bit as much as a mother who decides she wants to give up work. Giving up work is not a measure of how much you love your child or care about their well being. It is a decision which is right for some families, but it doesn't make it a better choice for everyone else.

Mrscog, please read my post. I did report the setting. However things had clearly not been right for some considerable time. If parents had been dropping in unexpectedly before that they would have been able to raise concerns earlier.

Just go for a nursery with cameras and then you can watch all day. We do that at ours

I think this is brilliant and all settings with vulnerable people should have them. A good nursery will welcome drop ins too.

And equally Janey68, some people who criticise childcare (or even question it) are not doing this because they are insecure, or extreme, or are bitter about sacrifices they've made. I am a part-time WOHP and strongly question whether full-time childcare in a group-setting for under 3's is necessarily the best thing, especially given the proliferation of profit-driven nurseries where the children's best interests are sometimes not the primary interest of the owners and workers. And a lot of my social circle have the same concern and would hesitate to place 0-3's in these settings. You have talked about the great quality nursery you used, but not all nurseries are like this! What do you think it's like for the many children in the poor-quality settings that you yourself would never have chosen? Someone chooses them, probably people without money/choice.

I think that these questions need to be asked not because of any baggage I have, and not because I want to make working parents feel guilty, but because I am concerned about childcare in some contexts.

• As far as I can see people were only suggesting one should drop in on a care environment unannounced every once in a while with the best of intentions - and often as a result of actually having found something wrong in the past

Or indeed see a wonderful busy little child! But you will not know unless you drop in and I would move heaven and earth to do it, just a few times a year!

I would just ask my employer out right if there was a problem with it.

You can only improve things by knowing whats going on, taking an interest, it will only make things better.

That's what we all want isn't it, to improve things and make them better, just like old peoples homes, where we will probably all end up one day.

Is child care every good for children, yes! But the basic priority must be that its properly run and safe, and I think we need more transparency, more parent drop in's, more cameras, better paid staff and better trained staff.

But if every parent does it, it's going to be a weekly occurrence for the children in the room.

I often pick DS up early, depending on work, and he is either actively engaged with his key worker or playing with other children, or just playing. He's happy. I feel much more comfortable with a nursery setting, where there are safeguards in place regarding being alone with children and a chain of people responsible for safety and care, than I do with the idea of an individual childminder.

And this, x 100,000,000

Giving up work is not a measure of how much you love your child or care about their well being. It is a decision which is right for some families, but it doesn't make it a better choice for everyone else

It doesnt take much to run in and say you forgot something, look through the window and they dont even see you.

Hop Nobody is saying that and this thread isn't about that.It's about the need for important questions being asked in order for families to weigh up what is better for them.It is also pointing out that the most important people in all this don't seem to be the priority to governments.

As parents we have to weigh up info when making all sorts of decisions.

You never know if it was looked into a lot more childcare would be improved.

Don't all nurseries have parents coming and going all day so they'd spot if something dodgy was going on? There isn't a mass drop off at 8am and a mass pick up at 5:30. There was a constant rotation of kids in and out at the dc's nursery.

In my 5 years of using nursery and plenty of random drop off and pick ups I never saw the staff being anything less than great with all of the children.

I do wonder why I bothered starting a career when really I should have just got a 'lesser job', seeing as I should have given it up the minute I had a child. What was I thinking?

Giving up work is not a measure of how much you love your child or care about their well being

^This.

I feel like parts of this thread are from the 1950s. We should be grateful we have a choice and options within our families.

Lots of people have mentioned high chairs, and this has got me thinking. In DS nursery they don't have any high chairs even in the baby room, they have tiny tables and chairs at floor level. The children are free to leave the table as and when - within the parameters of teaching table manners.

I did reject a couple of nurseries with lines of high chairs and I wonder if this was a subconscious thing, as there was something uncomfortable about it for me.

Maybe there should be more awareness of small details which help to create an outstanding setting.

Not sure of the need for hysteria.

So on that basis the question posed in the op should never be asked or looked into?

Because you don't like it being asked nobody else should have such important info when making their choices.

Pobble It was LittleBear who seemed to have a problem with others CHOOSING a different path. I pick up upon it because there has been a shift towards denigrating those parents who SAH or work part time.

It is a shame this thread degenerated.