to re-pose the radio 4 question - Is childcare good for CHILDREN?

[IceBeing]

Our dearest Justine and some bloke from the family childcare trust were on radio 4 this morning talking about childcare costs.

They focussed on Mums who would like to work more but cannot afford to due to childcare costs, and a proposal to make more free time available for 2-3 yos.

They both made a compelling case that this situation was bad for the Mums (because they want to work and can't).

They made a reasonable (but by no means obviously correct) argument that it was better for the economy for these Mums to work.

But they were then asked something along the lines of:

" Is increased access to childcare good for children? I mean if it isn't there isn't really any point? "

And they didn't answer AT ALL. They went back to the previous economic answer. Well actually Justine didn't get a chance to respond - so no accusation in her specific direction!

But what is the answer?

Is taking a child out of the home and putting them in nursery for an additional period between 2 and 3 yo (which was the proposal being discussed) actually good for the child?

Do kids in nursery earlier do better/worse at school? Are they happier/less happy? Is this a simple case of happier mummy, happier toddler?

[Retropear]

Pre school is good for kids from the age of 2,not so sure about 10 hours of childcare to be frank.Certainly not in all cases.

[ThisSummerBetterBeDarnGood]

I think one problem is that whether childcare is good or bad for a child some people have absolutely no choice (unless they want to raise their children in poverty on benefits) but to use it

My personal anecdotal experience is I have one single friend who without question has had to work. All the others have said they have to work to maintain their lifestyle.

Both parents on good wages, good savings, it just wasn't an issue for them, it was automatic, have child, after 9 months go back to work.
They have a higher bar when it comes to what they can and cannot afford so one lady was moaning she couldn't afford her second child but then a while disclosed over 50 grand of savings they were going to do extension with, now the money is going to a house move. Also talk of far east holidays.

In my world, no money means, nothing! We have sacrificed for me to stay at home when the children are small. Once they are both in school, i will go back to work and probably work until I am 80.

We have cut back, economised and live as thriftily as we can so I can stay at home for 8 years out of our lives, to look after our children. I do not see them materially missing out compared to their peers.


They didn't give it a second thought and I think this is how its going to be in the future, staying at home through choice to raise children, will be very very rare.

I also think like we have finally woken up to the fact that care homes for the elderly are not all the nice places as advertised on the brochure, nurseries are no different, they are a business run for profit.

We need total transparency in the nursery environment and we need parents to drop in un announced to see what their child is up too.

[ThisSummerBetterBeDarnGood]

I just think its really sad that getting mums out to work so they can pass their children onto some one else is really sad.

The years you have when they are small are a fleeting moment when you take into account they are only little for 3/4 ish years...then its gone forever.

[ThisSummerBetterBeDarnGood]

Their needs count,it's all about the cost and little else which I find sad this has been our philosophy, struggle for a few years it will be over soon and their childhood gone.

[Retropear]

I totally agree.You never get it back.

[SomethingkindaOod]

I worked as a nursery nurse for a few years and saw many children who settled and thrived, some who took longer and only a few who never settled and ended up leaving. Although it is dependant on the child, a big part is the staff employed IMO, the nursery I worked at (and sent 2 of my own children to) had older more experienced staff, most of whom were parents themselves. Younger, fresh out of college NN's tend to be less confident in general when dealing with young children, especially babies. It takes an awful lot of confidence to help to settle a new child in, as a NN you need to take charge, keep the child busy, make sure they're comfortable, deal with your group and your activity, potty training, meal times etc. A bad/badly trained NN can be a disaster for both the setting and the individual child.
Icebeing your LO could possibly benefit from one more session in nursery, spread out the sessions a little so they get into more of a routine. An example would be my own DD, she went Monday, Wednesday and Friday mornings so it was spread out as equally as possible. The comment made at your nursery would make me wonder if that was the best place to do it though!

[CelticJuggler]

I agree that you can't get it back, but for me, it's the quality of time that I spend with DS that counts.

I know I'm a happier person because I have time to myself (1/2 an hour on a train with a good book doesn't sound like a lot but it is priceless!) without being "on-call" all the time.

Weekends can then be about fun and family rather than chaos and getting wound up.

[Retropear]

Ice what about a childminder?

[WilsonFrickett]

I think it was good for my DS, yes. He was in a fantastic setting which met his needs beautifully and allowed him socialisation with other children which he just wouldn't have got.

But I agree with OP, it's hard to move beyond anecdote to data on this topic because it's something that's so hard to measure and I think we do need hard measurement on the subject. And no doubt it isn't good for every child, because every child is different.

That said, a life of grinding poverty on benefits isn't good for any child, is it? If childcare allows parents to work and keep a roof over their heads then it's hard to see it as a separate thing.

[TeamWill]

I agree with maillot most parents don't think" will my child be happier if I put them into a nursery than if they are at home with me" so the question is an odd one.

More likely the question is " I want/need to return to work "what is the best childcare for my child"
For many the question of what is best for the child simply cannot come at the expense of the parent or other family members. Im talking about financial hardship, loss of identity and mental health.
These things destroy families, its never as simple as "give up work" for everyone.

[ifyourehoppyandyouknowit]

I don't think you could ever say yes or no, it's not that black and white. Some children thrive in childcare and some people are not cut out for staying at home. You have to find the right childcare fit for your child, and your family.

With regard to being able to afford to stay home. I don't doubt that we would be able to make ends meet if I were to stay home until DS started school. But that would mean a) eating through most of our savings and having the constant worry that if something happened we would have nothing to fall back on b) living a very frugal existence and OK, the world doesn't revolve around being able to afford the odd takeaway and trips to visit family on the other side of the country, but it's a much happier life to just be able to do things like that on a whim and know that we can afford it and c) the risk that I wont be able to get back into the job market after a break of that length. So I'm back at work (partly because of those reasons and partly because I wanted to go back) and we are comfortable financially and have 'rainy day' savings. Financial stress makes me feel really ill, so I would choose childcare over that kind of anxiety. I recognise I'm lucky to have that choice though.

Anecdotally; DS (2) loves nursery, and often doesn't want to leave. He goes through phases where he cries at drop off, but then if fine two minutes later (I call and check). BUT, it is a small nursery (in a converted house, so really little) which is very relaxed and friendly. I've seen some massive chain nurseries that felt very cold. I don't doubt that the people in the rooms are friendly and loving, but the setting felt very odd to me. I think there's a bit of a golden window in regard to getting children settled into childcare; too early and I think it can be quite traumatic, too old and it's really difficult. We started at 10 months and that felt right (and timed with going back to work). I felt uncomfortable with the idea of a childminder, for a few reasons, but I have friends who use them and find it's a good fit for their children.

We need better quality, more flexible childcare to fit around non-office hours jobs, and an economy that doesn't fuck people who rent privately. I don't think all parents need to go back to work, but we all need to have a choice.

[OrangePixie]

Agree that there's a difference between not being able to afford not to work because you'll lose the roof over your head and not being being able to afford to work because you'll lose your second car, annual holiday and Sky subscription.

[jellybeans]

Is taking a child out of the home and putting them in nursery for an additional period between 2 and 3 yo (which was the proposal being discussed) actually good for the child?


I don't think it is necessarily 'good' but whether it does harm or not depends on the quality of setting I guess. Having studied psychology and the importance of early attachment and sensitivity of carers, these early relationships are crucial. Babies can and do attach to more than one caregiver but they should still have very sensitive carers and I am not convinced that many people can do this as well as the mother/father/grandmother who love the child and are not just paid (low wages) to look after it among others.

All the government care about is the economy and its narrow views on 'gender equality'. Many studies show parents (especially mothers) want to work less, not more yet the government is determined to get all parents into full time work and kids into day care. After that they would probably try to stop grandparental care, since this also in some cases means women (albeit of a different generation) are not doing paid work.

I worked f/t with my first in nursery and SAH with the later 4. It is true that i feel a lot closer to my DC now since spending so much more time with them.My priorities have changed (other life events may have affected this too), of course there is a price to me career wise so you can't have everything.

It seems also taboo now to say that a baby, or young child, needs its mother because we are constantly told or it is inferred that mothers are nothing special but in my eyes there is nothing wrong with both parents being equally important but not having the exact same roles while involving a third party to do childcare. Family splitting the paid and home work is a great way to do it for many people.

[funnyossity]

OP have you looked into making it work with a childminder?
I know some fantastic childminders providing home-based care.

I know I hate noise and busy atmospheres, one of my children has a similar nature and didn't even enjoy pre-school nursery at age 4 all that much. School with it's emphasis on structure has been great.

[ifyourehoppyandyouknowit]

Agree that there's a difference between not being able to afford not to work because you'll lose the roof over your head and not being being able to afford to work because you'll lose your second car, annual holiday and Sky subscription.

And not being able to afford to give up work because although you would lose the sky subscription and holiday, you would also lose the ability to save money and have a financial safety net to fall back on? It's fine saying that they are only little for a few years, but all it takes is one badly timed redundancy, illness or accident to leave you royally fucked, and I would advise anyone thinking of giving up work to look after their children to consider that. It's not about having lots of luxuries, it's about knowing that if the worst happens, you've got something to fall back on.

[Pobblewhohasnotoes]

My 2 year old loves his nursery. He's been going for a year since I went back to work after maternity leave. He talks about the staff and children when he's not there and he has such a good time. I think it's really good for him.

[WilsonFrickett]

I was brought up poor. My mother burned through relationships like other people burn through Jo Malone candles, each time putting our entire financial security in a man's hands. Yes, the reasons for that were complex and probably not for a forum but I would rather shit in my hands and clap than not have financial independence (even though my DH is lovely and we have a long, secure marriage).

Staying at home (which we could have afforded to do) would, I believe, have put an enormous strain on our relationship and my mental health. Within that context, childcare was good for DS. Because I was on an even keel. Staying at home wouldn't have been the best option for our family, and therefore for DS, so it was a case of finding the best possible option for childcare, and as I said above I do believe it was a positive experience for him.

But I think it's impossible to unpick his experience from my need to work.

I share this because from the outside it probably did look like I was working for the car, the Sky, the holiday. When in reality they were the nice bonuses that working provided, not the reason for working in the first place.

I think it's a massively complex issue.

[funnyossity]

Yes jellybeans the reductionist economic arguments always wind me up slightly. I recall Patricia Hewitt saying what a problem mothers staying at home to look after children were. I could have pointed her in the direction of a few more costly social problems.

Economics means that Patricia has had her way now as so few of the next generation of parents will be able to afford one at home.

[notadoctor]

Having worked in Sure Start Centres before having my DD, I knew that whatever our financial situation was - I wanted her to go to nursery part time from a young age. I think that children benefit enormously from socialising with their peers, from developing strong bonds with adults who aren't their primary carers, from developing self reliance by playing without one on one attention and from play which is tailored to their developmental stage.

When my DD was born, it took a long time for me to find a private day care nursery where the standard of care and the quality of play was as high as I'd seen in Sure Starts I'd worked in. So, I think the quality of what child care matters enormously - as does finding the right settling for your child.

After lots of visits, I found a nursery I loved. My DD goes 2 days per week. I've seen her language, independence and sense of self develop enormously - but if you asked her, she'd probably say she prefers Mummy days!

I think it's about finding the right environment and the right balance for the whole family. I don't think there's a definitive answer!

[Retropear]

God the woman interviewed on BBC news hacks me off.

3 lovely very young children,gorgeous house(I'm presuming London) and she's bemoaning being forced to give up work.

Erm perhaps space your kids out,have the family you can afford and buy a less expensive house.

Night entirely sure why the taxpayer and society should be held responsible for her lifestyle choice.

[gordyslovesheep]

well I had the choice of 'single parent on benefits' or 'working mother with kids in nursery' either way I was/am hated by the Daily Fail - but I have a roof over mine and the kids heads and food on the table which I think is very good for them

[Retropear]

Notadoctor most parents can provide all that.

Loving,familiar home and pre-school.It isn't hard.It only takes a few developmental toys,plenty of books and the outdoors which most homes have.

Not liking the inference from the gov and media that parents aren't qualified to care for their own children properly.A very small minority can't and it is these kids whom studies have linked the benefits of childcare to.

The vast maj can and do provide a stimulating environment at home which can be extended by quality ore- school sessions,toddler groups,play dates etc......

[justanuthermanicmumsday]

Since I've had kids I've not worked. I don't come from a privileged background and my husband isn't minted. The first baby was the toughest we would barely have any money left after utilities and food were payed for. We had a small sum of carers allowance for in law so we were lucky to be able to use that towards costs.

I guess we were poor, but I never thought I'm so poor I don't have money to go out, I don't have money for a computer, or tv or clothes that I need. It never crossed my mind to put my child in care so that I could have those luxuries. They are the extras that can make people happy, give them a better quality of life but it wasn't so pressing for me. so I was in a situation at 26 of having to save for a few weeks to get those trousers I needed, it took me back to my days as a kid when this saving and scrimping was the norm,

I think much has to do with the way I was raised we weren't exactly rich but we knew we were loved. We knew there would always be someone home, with a cooked meal, clean home, clean clothes, lots of love and attention. that's what I'm mimicking I suppose, some may think its stupid but I wouldn't want my kids in care if I could help it.

I understand some parents need to put kids in care no choice otherwise bills won't be paid, but those who can manage without luxuries should spend time with their kids instead of putting them in care. It doesn't matter how happy the child appears in nursery, nothing can replace the importance of a child parent relationship versus a child spending 30 hrs plus at a nursery.

Hop along I understand what you're saying but I don't know if I agree. I see my sister and her husband both working full time and all the over time they can get. But the truth is there won't be any money to fall back on in hard times, because every single penny is spent on the mortgage. There are no holidays never has been. She's always complaining. I suspect a lot of ppl have financial issues due to having mortgages. To me having a mortgage is a long time loan. It's not even your house until it's time to go to the grave, unless you are wealthy or fortunate to have bought before house prices rocketed up.

To make matters worse all her kids have done especially the youngest is cry out for attention. He's even verbalised it "mum you don't spend time with me, you don't Carr about me"How can she she's too tired after work it's food, clean, homework and bed. Weekend is cooking and freezing food for the week, so there will be dinners after work. She often complains, I've told her to get a smaller mortgage same size house which she initially wanted to do but back tracked on after seeing this particular house. Now it's effecting her health. What's the point where's her safety net, she hasn't got one, I'm sure this is the story for many people in Britain. She says she would be better off if she were a sahm all house chores would be done, and children would get the attention they need, perhaps part time would be better for her. But she's unwilling to look at a different house the truth is it is material luxuries that have held her back I.e this house.

So overall I don't think child are is good for kids.

[missfliss]

agree with all the posters that explain the true costs of having a SAHP. In many ways i would have loved it - but and here's the rub - my husband has been out of work 3 times since my son was born (he'll be 3 in May). Its been unbeliuevably tough - but my 4 days a week job (parental loans on one occasion) has kept us afloat as a family. We have a wonderful childminder with a lovely home based setting where my son is very happy.
Its been tough and at times ive felt very conflicted and torn, but the truth is we had to find childcare, so we acknowledge that it is a necessity and concentrated on finding the best we could to suit the needs of our son.
We chose a childminder as we needed 40 hours a week from 12 months over 4 days...for that reason we wanted somewhere more like home, and a bit quieter - with a continuity of care with the same person- if it had been say 20 hours a week we may have opted for s nursery.

[missfliss]

there simply is no 'one size fits all' right or worng answer - its obvious.

the fact is childcare is a necessity for many and must be of the highest quality possible. Different settings will suit different kids, and some lucky kids will love childcare, some lucky kids will have a SAHP.